D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mort]

Yep, that is another tool. Plot armor is huge for more mundane heros. Lots of games do this with metacurrency and have a lot less problems putting Black Widow and Thor in the same adventure this way.

If they gave true narrative control then they would be a bit of departure from traditional D&D but I'd be game.

For instance, you could have an ability that gave the dimension door like effect without disappearing and reappearing. So you can basically guaruntee moving from point A to point B through normal action hero moves because the enviroment will narratively shape itself to allow you do that with the meta currency -- the vine rips off in just the right way, the dragon flies past and you just off it's back to another platform, etc etc

Yes, exactly. The caster casts dimension door and appears 400 feet away.

The fighter, using some kind of established metacurrency, cashes it in and conveniently finds a zipline to get from A to B or a perfectly placed awning that allows him to jump down 400 feet without taking damage etc. (for a great take on this going hilariously wrong watch The Other Guys - great fake out re: action hero plot armor!).

This can be upped at higher level. The caster casts teleport and gets somewhere 1000 miles away immediately. the fighter, again cashing in some metacurrency, conveniently finds a passing airship, roc. dragon and also gets to where he needs to go "instantaneously enough."

Now the real issue with the 2 above examples. They take the fighter from having to "mother may I" the DM or the DM without input having to provide a means for the fighter to get from point A to point B - to allowing the fighter's player to control the game enough to force the issue - in other words narrative control.

I'm curious, would those that argue that spells like teleport are simply plot short cuts that the DM would provide for anyway - and thus don't actually change the game that much (such as @TheSword ) be up for allowing the fighter to pull the same stunt (in a non-magic way) without having to mother may I or otherwise rely on the DM?

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Kinda reminds me of this, from Exalted.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, exactly. The caster casts dimension door and appears 400 feet away.

The fighter, using some kind of established metacurrency, cashes it in and conveniently finds a zipline to get from A to B or a perfectly placed awning that allows him to jump down 400 feet without taking damage etc. (for a great take on this going hilariously wrong watch The Other Guys - great fake out re: action hero plot armor!).

This can be upped at higher level. The caster casts teleport and gets somewhere 1000 miles away immediately. the fighter, again cashing in some metacurrency, conveniently finds a passing airship, roc. dragon and also gets to where he needs to go "instantaneously enough."

Now the real issue with the 2 above examples. They take the fighter from having to "mother may I" the DM or the DM without input having to provide a means for the fighter to get from point A to point B - to allowing the fighter's player to control the game enough to force the issue - in other words narrative control.

I'm curious, would those that argue that spells like teleport are simply plot short cuts that the DM would provide for anyway - and thus don't actually change the game that much (such as @TheSword ) be up for allowing the fighter to pull the same stunt (in a non-magic way) without having to mother may I or otherwise rely on the DM?

I dislike that kind of narrative trickery because it basically homogenizes all the PC capacities. If the fighter uses a zipline, the rogue uses a grappling arrow, the wizard uses an arcane spell, and the cleric uses a divine portal to all move 400 ft in one round, you've basically given them all the same ability with different names.

Now if you were going for something like Mutants & Masterminds where all abilities are buyable by any character and your character idea flavors how the ability looks, you could make it work. You can buy the "Fast Move" ability and let your character concept determine if it's a magic spell, technology, luck, fate, or supernatural ability that gets you there. It's a very radical departure from D&D, but it's doable.

 

[Mort]

I dislike that kind of narrative trickery because it basically homogenizes all the PC capacities. If the fighter uses a zipline, the rogue uses a grappling arrow, the wizard uses an arcane spell, and the cleric uses a divine portal to all move 400 ft in one round, you've basically given them all the same ability with different names.

Now if you were going for something like Mutants & Masterminds where all abilities are buyable by any character and your character idea flavors how the ability looks, you could make it work. You can buy the "Fast Move" ability and let your character concept determine if it's a magic spell, technology, luck, fate, or supernatural ability that gets you there. It's a very radical departure from D&D, but it's doable.

You're essentially talking about niche protection - a very D&D thing.

Ok. But in 2 of the 3 pillars fighters get 0 abilities outside those available to everyone else. What would you (assuming you wanted to) give them in those pillars - without sacrificing niche protection?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Exactly my point above.

I do think we should probably just stop talking about "fixing the Fighter" and talk about creating a new martial Paragon class or whatever we call it.

The Fighter is just a bad chasis to start with from a mechanical point of view, and there is too much baggage associated with the label.

I do think there are enough people that do want this mundane, simple Fighter + magic items so of course let's keep it. There are people that want to improve the Fighter inside that paradigmn and that should happen too.

I am all in favor of the mythic/superhero paragon class. That, and the Level Up fighter for me, and Bob's your uncle.

 

[Micah Sweet]

and the real reason people tell us to 'forget it wont happen' is because last time a loud group complained on the net WotC DID listen... 'stop talking about it' is the way it will never be fixed... the squeeky wheel

Serious question: I know many people liked 4e, but was anyone actually clamoring for something like it at the tail end of 3.5? I always had the impression that 4e was pretty much all the dev's and corporates idea.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I am all in favor of the mythic/superhero paragon class. That, and the Level Up fighter for me, and Bob's your uncle.

Great, I wish we had an upswelling of support and pressure on WotC for 5.5e/6e to include these 3 classes:

The simple Fighter
The Level Up Fighter
The Paragon martial

We all live happily ever after and can pick and choose which ones we use based on campaign and table preference. Done.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Serious question: I know many people liked 4e, but was anyone actually clamoring for something like it at the tail end of 3.5? I always had the impression that 4e was pretty much all the dev's and corporates idea.

I don't think there were calls for 4e exactly but I think a lot of the ideas that got incorporated were talked about at the tail end of 3.5e.

Things like -- more balanced classes (angel vs. bmx bandit), no rocket tag, more consistency in rules, hassle and little gained from building up monsters like PCs, getting rid of trap options, front loaded multi class dips as annoying, etc.

4e did address a lot of the hot button topics at the time but it of course didn't have to look like 4e to do that. The implementation was perhaps more developer ideas. Who knows behind the scenes.

I mean I don't think WotC has a great track record of actually reaching out to the community with sophisticated non biased modern consumer preference research so who knows what they actually use to decide on things.

 

[Baron Opal II]

How else would you describe things that lie outside the normal rules of nature, other than as magical?

Well, since you asked...

1- Mundane: Easily explained through physical means, usually commonplace.

2- Uncanny: Explainable through physical means, although through unusual talent, training, or improbability. Reliably performing a running leap of 25 ft or climbing Bear's Reach (400 ft, multi-pitch) in under 5 minutes.

3- Preternatural: Explainable through physical means, but typically only as a once in a life time or 6 sigma occurrence. Reliable performance implies beyond-mundane ability. "Twin telepathy", horse whisperers, hurling a weapon to bring down a flying opponent short term, someone who always has just enough money regardless of situation.

4- Supernatural: Not explainable through physical means, but perhaps unpredictable. Often from lineage or special training. Most wuxia techniques I would place here. Bamboo walking, danger sense (might be preternatural), metabolic body control, not dying while holding the bridge until all your enemies are slain.

5- Magical: Systemically and frankly breaking known laws of physics, life without sustaining systems (elementals don't have organs, &c.). Magical gates, spells, &c. Create a fiery blade to kill a leshy, throw your spear and ride upon it, striking your foe so hard their parents die.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You're essentially talking about niche protection - a very D&D thing.

Ok. But in 2 of the 3 pillars fighters get 0 abilities outside those available to everyone else. What would you (assuming you wanted to) give them in those pillars - without sacrificing niche protection?

It's a bit unsolvable with the current niches. The "niche" of the high level spellcaster is pretty darn broad. So you are always going to step on those classes niche unless you limit spellcasters first.

If spellcasting was only able to do combat type elemental magic, imagine the other niches that could be filled by martial classes --- the traveler, the face, the information gathering, the infiltrator, etc. Instead all those can be handled by magic.

Now as many magic defenders point out, you can't always do all those things on the same day. So I'm fine with the martial overlapping with this niches. It just means the spellcaster doesn't need to cover it much right and can do other things?