D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mind of tempest]

Is there anyone who plays a fighter but expects the versatility of a wizard?

most expect to not feel like a tag-along and I get that in mid-level martials.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think the pizza topping analogy is strained & off the mark at best. The intercharacter balance & question of where tradeoffs should come is too important to dismiss in that fashion becaus d&d is a game where everyone plays with a similarly equal character than falls apart if one class is overpowered from the others to such a degree that it's among the best at everything. E

That imbalance? You're describing D&D, as created by Gary "REAL players play Magic-Users" Gygax.

I just want different ways to be overpowered than simply playing a 9 level caster.

What other people play ir do in a game you are participating in can make a difference in your enjoyment. Its not a good analogy.

And yet I'm stuck with overpowered casters and have to suck it up. Sucking it up is a 2 way street. I dont recall the Casters Uber Alles act requiring 100% consensus.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Is there anyone who plays a fighter but expects the versatility of a wizard?

A new player very well might.

More experienced players might not, due to a variant of Stockholm Syndrome unique to D&D fighter players.

Speaking as an experienced player, I don't expect it because (apart from 4e) the fighter has always been inferior to the wizard at high levels. However, I do think the fighter should have more versatility, even if it doesn't bring them on par with the wizard.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

We aren't talking about changing a poorly designed feature to bring value worth the cost, it's about things like fighters getting to fly at level 11

It sure would be awful if fighters had the basic tools to engage flying opponents in melee without picking one of the races that get flight at level 1.

 

[tetrasodium]

oops, semiduplicate mispost

 

[Micah Sweet]

That imbalance? You're describing D&D, as created by Gary "REAL players play Magic-Users" Gygax.

I just want different ways to be overpowered than simply playing a 9 level caster.

And yet I'm stuck with overpowered casters and have to suck it up. Sucking it up is a 2 way street. I dont recall the Casters Uber Alles act requiring 100% consensus.

It was grandfathered in.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It was grandfathered in.

Glad you've resigned yourself to bad design being a feature, not a bug.

 

[Asisreo]

martial class added to the game that will do extraordinary things at high level and get closer but not exceed the power, versatility, and narrative control of the current WIzard."

"I don't think that's neccessary. The current Fighter is fine. I've never seen these various reasons manifest at my table for x,y,z reasons. Anyway, regardless I don't really like the concept of mythic martials anyway and don't want them in my game."

"Sure, I respect that and glad the current Fighter is good for you. It doesn't work for my table and I ask that even if you don't understand why it's needed you support me in getting this option into the game. I'll make sure it isn't more powerful, versatile, and narrative controlling than the current Wizard so as not to upset current class power levels. This new Class option would greatly increase my group's enjoyment of the game and since optional you can ignore and play the current game to your hearts content. Sound ok?"

"I can't ignore this optional Class. If this is put into the game, I just won't play D&D anymore."

"?"

I don't understand where to engage with this stance?

This is where I see a disconnect. The fighter isn't fine for you. I know this and respect this. But why not ignore the fighter and play the classes that exist already?

Also, personally, I would like to avoid unnecessary bloat. If the new martial does the same thing as, say, a druid, then it is just a reskinned druid with the flavor of being "nonmagical."

An aside, can we talk about how ridiculous it is that they have mechanics linked to things being "magical" but they don't clarify it within the base rules. New players would need to go online and look at a separate document explaining what counts as "magical" and its kinda complex for a new player. There's also the fact that understanding spells like Dispel Magic requires very close reading for no reason. What I miss most from past editions are keywords, but oh well.

 

[TheSword]

It sure would be awful if fighters had the basic tools to engage flying opponents in melee without picking one of the races that get flight at level

They can. It’s called the Eldritch Knight. Levitate at 8th level. Fly at 14th level.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is where I see a disconnect. The fighter isn't fine for you. I know this and respect this. But why not ignore the fighter and play the classes that exist already?

Also, personally, I would like to avoid unnecessary bloat. If the new martial does the same thing as, say, a druid, then it is just a reskinned druid with the flavor of being "nonmagical."

Bloat ship sailed when we have useless garbage like the sorcerer and a half dozen other casters. They just added the artificer. Another class, high level feats, and high level maneuvers isnt a big ask.

I can't play the class I want because a few noisy and selfish types are intent on keeping anything that doesnt cast spells in the sidekick realm. At this point, if you dont understand the issue, it because you are willfully not listening.