D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[Swarmkeeper]

I'm of the stance that the intent of the spell is to get out of a situation with one or more enemies breathing down your neck as a blast goes off. Moving just 5 to 10 feet (or even 0 feet!) doesn't really jive with that intent.

Also, this:

I'd rule that they take the damage. I think that makes most sense with the thematics and the intended function of the spell. I don't want it to double as an AOE damage spell centred on self by the caster 'teleporting' in place. I would of course inform the player about this ruling before they commit to the action.

 

[Lyxen]

I'm not, but you aren't understanding what is written in the PHB.

Let's just say that we are not understanding the same thing, which is fine because it's the way 5e has been written, open to interpretations.

That is not what is says. It never says the teleportation fails whether the sphere is the origin or destination. It says it fails WITHIN THE SPHERE

Once more, it does not. It never uses "within".

whether it's the origin or destination.

If it was within, why would it need to make a precision about origin and destination.

You are assuming that it fails completely, which is not said or implied in that sentence.

It's implied completely in there, since it says clearly: "Teleportation and planar travel fail to work..." How could it fail "partially" ? It just fails, full stop, and therefore completely...

You do know what "in" means, right? It means inside the sphere. Nothing there says or implies that the entire teleportation fails, and everything there says or implies that it only fails in the sphere.

Yes, if the origin OR destination is IN the sphere, the teleportation fails. It says so explicitly.

I've said you cross the intervening space only. You cross it via the dimension(as the spells I quoted show) teleport uses to travel.

You have quoted nothing that shows which dimensions that is. My point is that the only thing that the spell does is make you disappear from a place and appear somewhere else, on the same plane. It does not mention you going through anything to get there.

Spells or aspects of spells targeting extradimensional spaces only affect teleport. There's a reason for that, even if you don't want to acknowledge that reason because it wrecks your position.

No, they affect teleportation, because it's affects YOUR dimension, not because there is anything extra-dimensional (which is mentioned nowhere in any teleportation spell) involved. Basically, these spells lock YOUR dimension, so that you cannot travel IN it magically ("Magical Travel" in Antimagic field for example) and you cannot travel to and from other dimensions.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think that's necessarily true, although it's a valid perspective. Curious, though ... based on your interpretation, what is the result of trying to teleport into an anti-magic field?

That's up to the DM. I'd have the person lost in the ethereal or astral. I need to decide which plane I think is most likely. An equally valid ruling would be to appear at the edge of the sphere. Having the entire spell fail goes against what is specifically written, which is that it only fails as a destination inside the sphere, so I think that's less valid that the other two, but still something the DM could reasonably rule given that the book is silent on what happens.

 

[Maxperson]

If it was within, why would it need to make a precision about origin and destination.

It doesn't. It doesn't make any general statement about the origin. It makes specific mention of originating IN(since you want to play semantics with "within") the sphere only, and as a destination point in the sphere. At no point does it talk about stopping the portion of teleportation that originates outside of the sphere.

Yes, if the origin OR destination is IN the sphere, the teleportation fails. It says so explicitly.

No. You again are over generalizing it to say "teleportation fails." It doesn't say it fails. It says it only fails in the sphere, which means that it is still succeeding outside of the sphere. If a caster casts it outside of the sphere, he vanishes and then the portion of the teleportation that is inside the sphere fails.

 

[Lyxen]

That doesn't say what you think it does. The wording is unfortunate, but it does not say that the teleportation and reappearance are two different effects.

As it clearly separates the disappearance, I dare say that it does...

And by the way, if you are correct and they ARE two different effects, that also makes you wrong about the anti-magic sphere. The departure is one effect and the sphere only stops the appearance effect if the destination is in the sphere.

And therefore the teleportation fails and you don't disappear. Since you don't disappear, there is no boom, because the boom only happens when you disappear. The spell fails completely because it lacks a valid target, see Xanathar.

It's completely consistent from beginning to end. And it's the only way that makes sense from beginning to end, actually.

Because that's one of the main weaknesses of your interpretation. If you teleport into an antimagic field, where do you go ?

I don't have to. The teleport happens first, because that effect happens prior to the thunder per RAW. The disappearance requires the teleport to have happened.

It's the other way around, because the teleport can only have happened once you have disappeared and then reappeared. But said in the right way, since the teleportation is blocked by the antimagic field (there can be no teleportation in an antimagic field when the destination is in it, not only the departure), the disappearance does not occur and therefore there is no thunder either.

 

[Lyxen]

Because you are still transiting through the dimension to get to the sphere.

There is no such thing as "transiting through the dimension", it's a pure invention that appears in none of the spells.

Regardless of the word instantly, some very small amount of time must occur between disappearing and reappearing while you transit the dimensional space. It's not perceivably long by the caster or anyone taken along. It's one effect, but the sphere specifically(specific beats general) only stops it from happening in the sphere.

And this is where you need to invent further things that don't need to exist, like a small amount of time "in transit". This is not mentioned by any rule or description, and does not need to exist when you read the spells without anything else in mind.

 

[Maxperson]

And therefore the teleportation fails and you don't disappear.

Nothing at all says that. The sentence you are hinging your argument to specifies that it is only talking about in the sphere and makes no attempt at the general "teleportation just fails" that you want it to mean.

Since you don't disappear, there is no boom, because the boom only happens when you disappear. The spell fails completely because it lacks a valid target, see Xanathar.

Teleport only targets the individuals and objects, so Xanathar's targeting rules don't apply here.

If you teleport into an antimagic field, where do you go ?

DM ruling.

 

[Lyxen]

That's up to the DM. I'd have the person lost in the ethereal or astral. I need to decide which plane I think is most likely. An equally valid ruling would be to appear at the edge of the sphere. Having the entire spell fail goes against what is specifically written, which is that it only fails as a destination inside the sphere, so I think that's less valid that the other two, but still something the DM could reasonably rule given that the book is silent on what happens.

And this is the weakness of your argument, that you need to invent planes as medium and invent rules about being stranded or at the edge of the field, but then which edge and why ?

The rule is clear and way simpler, the spell just fails, as written, completely, as it lacks a valid target.

By the way, the choice of the travel medium is not innocent, since by choosing one or the other, you are actually preventing teleportation to work on outer or inner planes, for example, and there is no reason for that.

The simplest rule (5e spells do what they say they do, nothing more), is that there is NO travel medium. It's just magic. You disappear at one place and appear at the other, as if by magic. But you can't do that if either of the origin or destination is in an antimagic field. Cannot be more simple than this, works in all cases, and consistent with all the rules.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no such thing as "transiting through the dimension", it's a pure invention that appears in none of the spells.

As I proved, it's heavily implied by spells that only affect extradimensional things affecting teleport. C'mon man.

And this is where you need to invent further things that don't need to exist, like a small amount of time "in transit". This is not mentioned by any rule or description, and does not need to exist when you read the spells without anything else in mind.

Really?

"INSTANTANEOUS
Many spells are instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that can't be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant."

Exists for an instant is an amount of time, but a very small one. Something that has no amount of time attached to it does not exist for even an instant. This is consistent with the common usage of the word which is for a very small amount of time.

 

[Lyxen]

Nothing at all says that. The sentence you are hinging your argument to specifies that it is only talking about in the sphere and makes no attempt at the general "teleportation just fails" that you want it to mean.

I'm sorry, but once more the sentence is complete, and you only have trouble with it if you cut it apart: "Teleportation and planar travel fail to work in the sphere, whether the sphere is the destination or the departure point for such magical travel."

Clearly, teleportation and planar travel are magical travel, as such they have an origin and a destination, and they FAIL TO WORK if either the origin or destination is IN the sphere. I don't know how make it clearer.

Teleport only targets the individuals and objects, so Xanathar's targeting rules don't apply here.

It works perfectly, the destination is a target of the spell. Just read the description of the spell, in your opinion, what does "on target", "off target" mean ? It's exactly the destination of the spell, and it's the target of the spell (at least one of them, in plain english). So read with me the Xanathar paragraph: "A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended."

The destination of the teleport is the target (that you try to be on, but could be off), and it's invalid. Nothing happens and you expended the spell slot.

DM ruling.

Of course, but the guidance is pretty clear above.