D&D General How do players feel about DM fudging?

[Charlaquin]

What extreme position am I, Vaalingrade, the person you are quoting and addressing and not whatever other pro-fudge person living, dead or imagined, taking?

“The dice don’t care about the game. The GM does. Fudge away.”

Seems extreme to me.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't know, and I don't terribly much care, but in previous threads people have called changing what has been prepped illusionism.

Yeah, that seems like a very broad definition of illusionism to me, but my feelings on it are also

 

[LordEntrails]

It's not the definition, so much as the incredible misperception of what is going on. I've seen multiple people post something to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing, "I hate fudging, because if someone fudges extremely rarely and under very specific circumstances, it means that I can't trust that they aren't going to just kill my character off or cause me to fail all the time." I mean, the disconnect there is tremendous and I can't credit their opinion at all, because it's just so way off base.

If you "know" your significant other has cheated on you once, do you think they are going to do it again?
Hence why I said pages ago that it 'erodes' trust.

I and many others... don't. We don't care about the 'consequences' or 'challenge' and are really just down for a good game of pretend with an arbitration system that can adjust by reading the room.

And that works for us because that's what we like.

So know you are stating opinions for other people as well? I'll trust you truly know how they feel on this issue and have discussed it with them at length. I mean, good for you and your group if that's what you like.

It isn’t really controversial, happens all the time. The people that object to it, just don’t know it’s happening.

You're missing one of my points. Experience tells me that people think others don't know what is happening, but often enough, they really do. Sure, the first time it's missed, or ignored, or not worried about, but over time it 'erodes'. It's just a matter of how quickly it erodes is based upon how often it happens and the person who doesn't like it. It might take months of game play, as it did in my actual campaigns. Or it might only take once.

For all your protests, you’ll never know if your DM is doing it. And because you want your players to think you don’t, nothing you can say can convince me that you don’t do it either

Hubris. For all your protests, you'll never know your significant other is cheating on you. But over time, you will "know" it. And even if you can't "prove" it, trust will errode. Why hang out with your ex when you don't have to? Why change dice rolls when their are so many other tools to use?
EDIT: oh, and effectively telling me you think I'm a liar is really not acceptable.

Is anyone who is on this thread and is anti-fudging adopting such a broad definition of fudging, however?

Not me.

but I have seen no instance in any game with any group of players where the information I conveyed was in and of itself causing the players to reach an erroneous conclusion.

Happened to me (PotA). I was DM. In brief; Miscommunication with a player in a thieve's tavern, they thought I said the PC was being blocked by the patrons from leaving the tavern, I meant blocked going further in. PC thought he was trapped so dropped a fireball on himself. Killed lots of commoners. I did not change the die rolls or retcon the actions. Maybe I should have, but we played it out. PCs ended up fleeing town and had to work out another way to accomplish their goals.

 

[Vaalingrade]

“The dice don’t care about the game. The GM does. Fudge away.”

Seems extreme to me.

So... the dice totally care about the game and DM's don't?

I... don't think you're saying what you hope you're saying.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So know you are stating opinions for other people as well? I'll trust you truly know how they feel on this issue and have discussed it with them at length. I mean, good for you and your group if that's what you like.

All but like two of my group DM and we talk shop all the time. So yeah, I might know how they feel. At least more then internet people trying to read their minds at range to make some point at the very least.

 

[LordEntrails]

All but like two of my group DM and we talk shop all the time. So yeah, I might know how they feel. At least more then internet people trying to read their minds at range to make some point at the very least.

None of us have tried to speak for the players at your table. Your frequent misrepresentations of what is being written is getting tiring to correct. The experience myself and others have written about is our experiences. And that in many cases we have payed with DMs that thought changing die rolls was ok, but that in many cases players did not agree with them.

Sure there are exceptions. But as seen in this poll, the number of players on this board are not ok with it is significant.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Nevermind.

 

[FrozenNorth]

There are certain things that I've stated are akin to fudging (but not actually fudging) as they have largely the same effect, so I do what I can to avoid them. Changing prep on the fly to suit particular ends would fall into that category. In order to design and run games in a consistent manner that produces good results, I have GMing principles for myself and if something violates those principles, they're right out, no negotiation, no mercy.

Ok, but to flip that around, what about a situation where you are a player rather than the DM. How strict are you on such principles.

For instance, to pose to you the same question that @Charlaquin answered:

• if a DM told you they reserved the right to fudge (modify a die roll that had already been made) during Session Zero, how would you feel?
• if you realized during play that a DM fudged rolls and they didn’t tell you up front, how would you feel?

After all, I also have principles that I don’t necessarily expect other people to live up to.

 

[Mordhau]

• if a DM told you they reserved the right to fudge (modify a die roll that had already been made) during Session Zero, how would you feel?
• if you realized during play that a DM fudged rolls and they didn’t tell you up front, how would you feel?

If I knew the DM fudged rolls and my character got killed by a Critical Hit from an Orc I would be asking the DM why he didn't fudge that one.

If you fudge you're not really rolling you're deciding. If the players know you're fudging then they know you're deciding.

 

[iserith]

Ok, but to flip that around, what about a situation where you are a player rather than the DM. How strict are you on such principles.

For instance, to pose to you the same question that @Charlaquin answered:

• if a DM told you they reserved the right to fudge (modify a die roll that had already been made) during Session Zero, how would you feel?
• if you realized during play that a DM fudged rolls and they didn’t tell you up front, how would you feel?

After all, I also have principles that I don’t necessarily expect other people to live up to.

I'm out in either situation, but respect the DM for telling me in Session Zero rather than let me figure it out later on my own. It's not that I necessarily hold other DMs to my standards - that would be evident by just looking at how different my groups' DMs operate - but there are certain things I as a player won't accept and this happens to be one of them.