D&D General How do players feel about DM fudging?

[Charlaquin]

'disrespectful' and 'dishonest' are insults and accusations.

If you do something your players don’t like, and try to hide the fact that you’re doing it from them, how is that not disrespectful and dishonest?

If you know all your players like it, it’s not disrespectful or dishonest to do. I have said that many times now.

 

[Cadence]

I think it’s probably better to understand people calling it a lie as an expression of how they feel about how a DM who does it is treating them, rather than as an accusation targeted at anyone in particular. Maybe DMs who fudge don’t think they’re lying to their players, but if you do fudge, I think it’s best to understand that a sizable portion of players will feel like they have been lied to, should they find out. And if you try to prevent them from finding out, in order to avoid making them feel that way… Aren’t you kind of proving them right?

For this reason, I strongly believe any DM who intends to engage in dice fudging should clear it with their players in session zero. If everyone is onboard, great, fudge away. If anyone isn’t on board… Wouldn’t you rather know that ahead of time?

That seems fair.

I think for DMs that say they fudge I might like to have a general feeling of how often or what would make them do so and what they consider fudging.

I think I'd also like a DM who says they don't fudge to be clear what they mean (do they mean they also don't change random encounters, don't alter planned reinforcements, do they never update encounters once written or it is ok until the party gets there, etc...).

Thanks for giving me a lot to think about for my next session 0!

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don't like the 'then why are you hiding it?' argument.

To me it's like getting mad at wrestlers for kayfabe or a show using CGI. There's a piece of stagecraft everyone knows is happening (or at least should after 50 years) and people are getting mad that the thing that's always been there is there.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't like the 'then why are you hiding it?' argument.

To me it's like getting mad at wrestlers for kayfabe or a show using CGI. There's a piece of stagecraft everyone knows is happening (or at least should after 50 years) and people are getting mad that the thing that's always been there is there.

A lot of people dislike pro wrestling because it’s so transparently staged. A lot of people don’t like CGI and pine for the days of practical effects being the standard. A lot of folks don’t like having to play D&D with the knowledge that the dice don’t actually matter. I think those are all perfectly reasonable preferences.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't like the 'then why are you hiding it?' argument.

To me it's like getting mad at wrestlers for kayfabe or a show using CGI. There's a piece of stagecraft everyone knows is happening (or at least should after 50 years) and people are getting mad that the thing that's always been there is there.

People have noted the "don't call attention to it in context" aspect of it. No one objects to that. DMs avoiding a spotlight on the nitty-gritty of their work is perfectly fine.

The "then why are you hiding it?" argument comes into play with the literal mounds of examples of DMs who say never ever reveal that you fudge. Never ever let the players find out that this is a thing you might do (or might have done). Keep it a secret forever.

Kayfabe is fine. What is not fine is pretending that no, it's not kayfabe, all of our wrestling is completely real, we swear, these are not performers, these are legitimate competitions of prowess.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Kayfabe is fine. What is not fine is pretending that no, it's not kayfabe, all of our wrestling is completely real, we swear, these are not performers, these are legitimate competitions of prowess.

Like acting like these long drawn out rows of an elf game are serious?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Like acting like these long drawn out rows of an elf game are serious?

It's serious to me. I expect, when I'm playing a game, that I'll actually be playing a game, not playing "whatever my DM feels like."

Do you not see a distinction between deceiving characters--as in, the characters lack full knowledge of their world, as is typical of most beings--and deceiving players--as in, getting the players to believe they are engaging in one kind of activity IRL when they are in fact engaged in a very different kind of activity?

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's not a whole other activity. It's watching a raw film vs watching the edited and finalized version.

That's the difference here:

It's a piece of stagecraft being played off as some grand deception.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, I do.

Hello. My name is Ezekiel Raiden. You fudged my roll. Prepare to...hm. Perhaps Inigo is not the best choice of role model here!

I was talking about people who don't want it directly presented. I'm quite capable of understanding that if you say you'd react to this badly, you'd react to it badly; I'm not so willing to let you say people in the other camp wouldn't.

Past that, I still say I think you're ignoring that other people can have priorities about things that are radically enough different from yours that you're not accepting because you don't consider them inconsistent. I get them, but since I don't share them, I lack the energy to continue the fight on the part of third parties.

 

[Maxperson]

It doesn't feel like you're announcing the results of the roll... since you literally changed it to what wasn't rolled. Now, saying it was the result of the check or attack or whatnot would seem different to me.

I don't generally announce the results any rolls. I simply say hit, miss or crit.