Ukraine invasion

[Zardnaar]

Where did I see this...maybe here...can't recall...BUT...

A lot of comparison of what Russia is like today and what it has been doing has been compared to the Nazi's...or at least what we, in the West, see Nazi's as.

It is very popular in Ukraine to also see them as such these days, with the Z that Russians have on their vehicles being utilized as a naZi symbol, or the new Nazi symbol

HOWEVER...

One point of view that I've seen related in how Russians view the Nazi's is very different than our views. They didn't care that the Nazi's had the Holocaust (and in fact, it is thought that Stalin killed a lot more Jews and other minorities, some guesses as high as 3X as many as Hitler and the Nazi's did). They didn't care that the Nazi's were facists. What they DID care about was that the Nazi's attacked Russia and then tried to eradicate Russian culture. Thus, those who attempt to destroy or harm Russia by default fall under their idea of what a Nazi is.

In this definition NATO and Europe have definately been the Nazi's to the Russian People over the past 25 years. It was not so much that new nations separated and became new nations from the Soviet Block after the fall of the USSR, butt that it appears that the Russian cultural impact and effect is disappearing and being replaced with Western morals and cultural views. It is a NEW invasion upon Russian heritage and culture. The last time this happened was the Great War against the Nazi's. It is THIS comparison to Nazi's that they are making (NOT the one that we are making). In this light, to them, WE are the invaders, and as we appropriate former Soviet nations into the Western umbrella, to them it is akin to what happened in World War 2 as the Nazi's slowly took over various lands owned by the USSR.

To them, the Nazi's are not what we view Nazi's as, but those who destroy Russian culture and try to change it to a different one. As more areas of what they consider Russian nations are enveloped and then accepted into the EU and NATO, it would probably seem to them as if a New Nazi (in their definition) threat has arisen to destroy the Russian people once more.

To be clear...

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ABOVE IDEAS. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE RUSSIAN ATTACK ON UKRAINE. I SUPPORT UKRAINE AND BELIEVE THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS IN ALL OF THIS, AND RUSSIA IS BEING THE AGGRESSOR AND THE BAD GUYS.

I pointed out the above view because it may be that we and the Russians are saying things that use the same words, but mean VERY DIFFERENT things to each side.

Broadly speaking their use of Nazi means anyone who opposes Russia.

They'll use it whenever it's convenient. They've ramped up the propaganda last 12 years or so about the great patriotic war.

YouTube the May 9th parades.

 

[MGibster]

well this is interesting Report: Sweden and Finland to join NATO over Ukraine invasion

When Russia invaded, a lot of people predicted Russia was about to get a lot more NATO than less of it.

I was having a convo with a friend the other day and he insisted that the invasion was a result of NATO expansion - more or less blaming, at least in part, the US and NATO for the invasion - and I predicted that within 10 years NATO would massively expand. Right prediction, massively wrong timeline.

I sometimes hear a similar line from Soviet apologists. i.e. That the Soviets were right to be paranoid about the west which justified their actions in Eastern Europe from 1945-1980s. I've heard the argument form others that NATO's expansion gave Russia cause for alarm. In while most of them don't outright say this justifies the invasion, at the very least they lay the blame at the United States as if Russia isn't responsible for their own actions. But they are partially right, I think. While I don't believe for a second that Putin was afraid NATO was going to invade, joining NATO has pulled countries like Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, etc., etc. further away from the Russian sphere of influence. That's what Putin is afraid of. That Ukraine was a burgeoning democratic country headed closer to Europe and further from Russian influence was what had to be stopped.

In this definition NATO and Europe have definately been the Nazi's to the Russian People over the past 25 years. It was not so much that new nations separated and became new nations from the Soviet Block after the fall of the USSR, butt that it appears that the Russian cultural impact and effect is disappearing and being replaced with Western morals and cultural views.

If only Russians stopped and asked themselves, "Why do all these countries not want to be our friend and instead choose to cozy up to NATO and the EU?" It's because a lot of those countries remember what life was like under the Soviet Union. Many of them didn't exactly choose to be satellite nations. NATO never invaded another NATO country. But the Soviets weren't shy about invading Hungary.

 

[billd91]

But the Soviets weren't shy about invading Hungary.

To be fair, the Hungarians hadn’t been shy about invading the Soviet Union in 1941. Or earlier in WWI for that matter. So it wasn’t hard to understand the Soviet crackdown in 1956.

 

[Zardnaar]

When Russia invaded, a lot of people predicted Russia was about to get a lot more NATO than less of it.


I sometimes hear a similar line from Soviet apologists. i.e. That the Soviets were right to be paranoid about the west which justified their actions in Eastern Europe from 1945-1980s. I've heard the argument form others that NATO's expansion gave Russia cause for alarm. In while most of them don't outright say this justifies the invasion, at the very least they lay the blame at the United States as if Russia isn't responsible for their own actions. But they are partially right, I think. While I don't believe for a second that Putin was afraid NATO was going to invade, joining NATO has pulled countries like Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, etc., etc. further away from the Russian sphere of influence. That's what Putin is afraid of. That Ukraine was a burgeoning democratic country headed closer to Europe and further from Russian influence was what had to be stopped.


If only Russians stopped and asked themselves, "Why do all these countries not want to be our friend and instead choose to cozy up to NATO and the EU?" It's because a lot of those countries remember what life was like under the Soviet Union. Many of them didn't exactly choose to be satellite nations. NATO never invaded another NATO country. But the Soviets weren't shy about invading Hungary.

Then it becomes the wests fault brainwashing them.

I've heard their tv is like Fox news but on 11 different channels the difference being the colours.

 

[John R Davis]

Clearly Mr PiNut is a megalomaniac going further of the rails.

Reports of chemical weapons attack are very worrying, and the all nations of the world should unite in condemnation, and action, if proved true.

 

[Horwath]

Clearly Mr PiNut is a megalomaniac going further of the rails.

Reports of chemical weapons attack are very worrying, and the all nations of the world should unite in condemnation, and action, if proved true.

What action?

Either rest of the world calls Putin's bluff about using nukes if NATO interferes(if it is a bluff) and NATO bombs the #### out of every russian position in Crimea/Donbass or things continue as they are now. Just funneling weapons so Ukraine can deal with this with their own troops. Plus some misc mercenaries.

 

[John R Davis]

China to vote to condemn this if it turns out to be true would be a start.
It's not NATOs role it's the worlds

 

[Imaculata]

China to vote to condemn this if it turns out to be true would be a start.
It's not NATOs role it's the worlds

That seems unlikely to happen.

 

[Horwath]

That seems unlikely to happen.

true.

they will remain silent/neutral about it.

They need lots of newly freed up energy from russia and they need west to sell their cheap products.

 

[John R Davis]

If the UN is so weak maybe time to have a reorganise, and redefine what "security" means.

Not sure how you handle warcrimes when 1000's are committing them.