Ukraine invasion

[Horwath]

Not sure how you handle warcrimes when 1000's are committing them.

you dont.

sad thing, but there will be next no none is prosecution of these crimes.
that is one more price to pay for isolating russia. they will not give their citizens for no incentive.

if some of the perpetrators have some anti-putin view point in the futura or some anti war sentiment, regime might sentence them to both keep them quiet and to show the "west" that they care about rule of law.

 

[Ryujin]

If the UN is so weak maybe time to have a reorganise, and redefine what "security" means.

Not sure how you handle warcrimes when 1000's are committing them.

That's probably even less easy than amending the US Constitution given who currently has veto power in the Security Council, and the various power blocks involved.

 

[Umbran]

If the UN is so weak maybe time to have a reorganise, and redefine what "security" means.

The major powers of the world are not going to sign on to a UN that has real power over them. They have no incentive to do so.

 

[Ulfgeir]

The major powers of the world are not going to sign on to a UN that has real power over them. They have no incentive to do so.

Unfortunately all to true.

 

[Mannahnin]

I was having a convo with a friend the other day and he insisted that the invasion was a result of NATO expansion - more or less blaming, at least in part, the US and NATO for the invasion - and I predicted that within 10 years NATO would massively expand. Right prediction, massively wrong timeline.

I sometimes hear a similar line from Soviet apologists. i.e. That the Soviets were right to be paranoid about the west which justified their actions in Eastern Europe from 1945-1980s. I've heard the argument form others that NATO's expansion gave Russia cause for alarm. In while most of them don't outright say this justifies the invasion, at the very least they lay the blame at the United States as if Russia isn't responsible for their own actions. But they are partially right, I think. While I don't believe for a second that Putin was afraid NATO was going to invade, joining NATO has pulled countries like Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, etc., etc. further away from the Russian sphere of influence. That's what Putin is afraid of. That Ukraine was a burgeoning democratic country headed closer to Europe and further from Russian influence was what had to be stopped.


If only Russians stopped and asked themselves, "Why do all these countries not want to be our friend and instead choose to cozy up to NATO and the EU?" It's because a lot of those countries remember what life was like under the Soviet Union. Many of them didn't exactly choose to be satellite nations. NATO never invaded another NATO country. But the Soviets weren't shy about invading Hungary.

NATO might be defunct nowadays if its neighbors weren't still scared of being invaded by Russia. And now (and, TBF, 2008, with Georgia, and 2014 in Crimea) Russia is demonstrating why NATO is still relevant. Way to make the case, Putin.

 

[Mannahnin]

One point of view that I've seen related in how Russians view the Nazi's is very different than our views. They didn't care that the Nazi's had the Holocaust (and in fact, it is thought that Stalin killed a lot more Jews and other minorities, some guesses as high as 3X as many as Hitler and the Nazi's did). They didn't care that the Nazi's were facists. What they DID care about was that the Nazi's attacked Russia and then tried to eradicate Russian culture. Thus, those who attempt to destroy or harm Russia by default fall under their idea of what a Nazi is.

Yes, part of their national identity as the folks who beat the Nazis (and lost twenty million people doing it), which they increasingly lean on to grant moral legitimacy to their nationalist ideology, no matter how far they slide into fascist authoritarianism.


This existential fear you reference may go back at least to the Mongol conquest in the 13th century. One of my friends wrote a piece about this over the weekend. Russia's had this continual theme of expansionist foreign policy, constantly seeking to expand their borders to defensible ones, because the Russian plains were basically indefensible between Poland and the Urals.

And Russia, unlike many of their neighbors, never really had a period of relatively liberal capitalist society in their history. They went from monarchy to communism to kleptocracy and now to quasi-dictatorship.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, part of their national identity as the folks who beat the Nazis (and lost twenty million people doing it), which they increasingly lean on to grant moral legitimacy to their nationalist ideology, no matter how far they slide into fascist authoritarianism.


This existential fear you reference may go back at least to the Mongol conquest in the 13th century. One of my friends wrote a piece about this over the weekend. Russia's had this continual theme of expansionist foreign policy, constantly seeking to expand their borders to defensible ones, because the Russian plains were basically indefensible between Poland and the Urals.

And Russia, unlike many of their neighbors, never really had a period of relatively liberal capitalist society in their history. They went from monarchy to communism to kleptocracy and now to quasi-dictatorship.

Well the Mongols/French/Nazis left emotional scares and in their mindset defensive=expansion.

 

[nedjer]

The next month will likely be more about the annual mud festival than more of the dramatic events of recent weeks. Fiver says we'll find Ukraine adapt to the conditions while Russian troops become ever more miserable.

 

[Zardnaar]

The next month will likely be more about the annual mud festival than more of the dramatic events of recent weeks. Fiver says we'll find Ukraine adapt to the conditions while Russian troops become ever more miserable.

Ukraine doesn't really have to camp outside in it.

Watched this last night. Documentary on the toewn of glory from the erm Great Patriotic War.

 

[Eltab]

Clearly Mr PiNut is a megalomaniac going further of the rails.

Reports of chemical weapons attack are very worrying, and the all nations of the world should unite in condemnation, and action, if proved true.

Since sanctions are the order of the day, and this war is about whether Eastern European nations may choose to join NATO ...
NATO members could Lend-Lease (rather than sell) equipment to Ukraine, and help upgrading the railroads to get that equipment there.
Some of the first load of equipment should be chemical protective gear; make Putin look like a fool for opening that can of worms, and for basically advertising what NATO membership helps keep away from you.