D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[Cadence]

Some might not like whatever provided choice is closest to what they do and need a lot in the comments (which is super!), but...

D&D General - How does your PC interact with hit points?

So, pick an edition of D&D and imagine you're in a game that's being run by the default settings. In particular, hits and damage don't really have a specified narration (maybe you're getting tired, or nicked, or bruised, or small cuts, or are running out of luck), although either you or the DM...

www.enworld.org

 

[DND_Reborn]

Some might not like whatever provided choice is closest to what they do and need a lot in the comments (which is super!), but...

D&D General - How does your PC interact with hit points?

So, pick an edition of D&D and imagine you're in a game that's being run by the default settings. In particular, hits and damage don't really have a specified narration (maybe you're getting tired, or nicked, or bruised, or small cuts, or are running out of luck), although either you or the DM...

www.enworld.org

LOL you can always add an "Other. Please explain." option... I do for pretty much all my polls.

 

[Cadence]

LOL you can always add an "Other. Please explain." option... I do for pretty much all my polls.

I have the feeling that's about all I'd get sometimes on here, so might as well just make it a general thread instead of a poll

 

[Hussar]

I mean, that depends on what you mean by "about what is being simulated".

A decent simulation gives you things that look like the thing that is being simulated, in some sense. That does not give you any information about the mechanisms that create the thing in the real world.

For instance - In TV studios, they often use bright lights, sometimes tens of thousands of watts of light. They can be quite warm. Imagine filming a TV commercial, in which a character has an ice cream sundae. DO you think that sundae is holding up in the studio for hours? No. If the actor doesn't have to actually eat it, they can use a facimile, which is a visual simulation of an ice cream sundae. Similarly, the stuff they pour in slow-motion on cereal in cereal commercials often isn't actual milk. It is something that seems like milk on the screen.

When I say the simulation doesn't tell us about how the world works, it is this: Neither the fake ice cream sundae, nor the fake milk, informs you about how cows are involved in the real thing. It just acts like we want these dairy products to act for the purposes we need. Knowing how the fake milk and fake ice cream are made does not necessarily tell you anything about the real milk in the fridge.

Or, you can make a bot, a simulation of a person, who can hold up their end of a conversation in text. It can be done with clever context searches of large databases (or, the internet as a whole, even, iirc). That doesn't necessarily tell you how your human brain carries on conversation.

But look at your examples. I know, even from the facimile, that ice cream shouldn't melt under normal circumstances. I can look at that and see that what they are pouring is supposed to be milk. Sure, it tells me nothing about where milk comes from, but, it does tell me that milk is white and would normally pour (more or less) like water except they are slowing things down - so, I'm seeing what milk would look like if I could see faster. In other words, information about what I'm simulating is being transmitted.

Like I said, it's not about not having enough information or that a simulation must tell you every single thing. Of course not. But, D&D combat doesn't tell you anything. Nothing. Even, "How close you are to death" is a purely meta-game concept that doesn't actually exist in the game. As was mentioned, if the DM tracks HP, the player now knows absolutely nothing from the mechanics of the game.

Imagine a game where you are not told your HP, not told how much damage an attack does. Just told hit or miss. What could you do with that information? If the mechanics were simulating something, you should know, from the mechanics, some information. But, all you know is an completely abstract number that doesn't actually mean anything.

I'm not bagging on HP. I think they're a great mechanic. They're just not a simulation of anything.

 

[Charlaquin]

For me, I have no problem with the term. A game like the above mentioned HarnWorld is very much leaning towards being able to tell the players something about the in game fiction when you invoke the mechanics. In other words, it's actually simulating something. Doesn't have to be something real at all. The point of a simulation isn't to simulate reality - it's to tell you what happens when you input specific parameters. You tell the simulation that X and Y are true, and it tells you that Z happens because of that.

But literally all game mechanics exist to tell you what happens when you input specific parameters. That’s exactly my point. All RPGs are simulating something. The question is what is being simulated? Historical skirmish combat? The conventions of a certain genre? Something else? All games simulate something, it’s more valuable to ask what than to draw a line and say games on one side of it are simulationist and games on the other side aren’t.

 

[Thomas Shey]

But literally all game mechanics exist to tell you what happens when you input specific parameters. That’s exactly my point. All RPGs are simulating something. The question is what is being simulated? Historical skirmish combat? The conventions of a certain genre? Something else? All games simulate something, it’s more valuable to ask what than to draw a line and say games on one side of it are simulationist and games on the other side aren’t.

I dunno. Some RPG mechanics don't seem to exist to simulate so much as to serve game functions.

 

[Charlaquin]

What does Torchbearer simulate?

Torchbearer goes into a fair bit of detail simulating the challenges of delving into dangerous (often subterranean) locations in search of treasure. It’s a riff on the genre conventions of early D&D, that leans hard into the fridge logic of what a harrowing experience that would actually be.

When I roll the dice for combat in T&T, what is that simulating?

Combat. It obviously isn’t a very detailed simulation, because detailed simulation of combat isn’t one of the game’s goals.

When I Spout Lore in Dungeon World and throw my 2d6, what is that simulating?

Dungeon World is another take on the genre conventions of early D&D. It’s simulating them, in a different way than Torchbearer does. Spout Lore specifically simulates… well… spouting lore.

 

[Charlaquin]

I dunno. Some RPG mechanics don't seem to exist to simulate so much as to serve game functions.

Functions such as?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Functions such as?

Well, in the case of hit points, pace of decision. You can argue its also a substitute for defense, but if so, its about as baroque a simulation of that as you can get.

 

[Umbran]

But look at your examples. I know, even from the facimile, that ice cream shouldn't melt under normal circumstances.

Except, of course, non-simulated ice cream melts all the time. The simulation doesn't tell you that. Nor does it tell you that ice cream is edible, because sure as heck the simulation isn't.

You see, that simulation is made for a purpose. The prop ice cream is a highly accurate visual simulation, but it is not a good simulation of, say, the flavor of ice cream. This is common for simulations - they are generally made for some purpose, and they don't reliably reveal anything beyond that.

Try to use the simulation beyond the realm it was intended, conclusions you draw about the thing being simulated will tend to be inaccurate. Usually highly inaccurate. Using that simulated ice cream, you may get an accurate idea of what it looks like, but not its physical texture, chemical composition, or gustatorial properties.

If the game is a simulation, then is only intended to be so for the purposes of people around a table having fun playing heroic adventures. If you try to use it to, say, be a model of the fictional world's economy, beyond what is seen in the transactional experiences of the PCs... well, it notoriously doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Like I said, it's not about not having enough information or that a simulation must tell you every single thing. Of course not. But, D&D combat doesn't tell you anything. Nothing. Even, "How close you are to death" is a purely meta-game concept that doesn't actually exist in the game.

Yep. This seems nonsensical if you've misconstrued the purpose of the simulation. We are not simulating a world with rational biology for academic study. We are at best simulating heroic action fiction for entertainment. There's a strong argument that we aren't even simulating a heroic action fiction world - just the fiction itself. Heroic action fiction has dramatic highs and lows - one way we simulate those is by driving the character down and up in hit points.