D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

But literally all game mechanics exist to tell you what happens when you input specific parameters.
No they don't. This isn't an accurate description of Apocalypse or Dungeon World, of a 4e skill challenge, of how failures are narrated in Burning Wheel, or how conflicts are resolved in Torchbearer. That's before I get to slightly more obscure systems like HeroWars/Quest, or In A Wicked Age, or My Life With Master.

Some RPG mechanics don't seem to exist to simulate so much as to serve game functions.
And others exist to tell us who has the job of saying something next, and what parameters should govern that.

For instance, if I get a 6 or less in AW or DW, the GM is allowed to make as hard a move as they like. That doesn't simulate anything - it grants a permission to establish a certain sort of fiction.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Like I said, it's not about not having enough information or that a simulation must tell you every single thing. Of course not. But, D&D combat doesn't tell you anything. Nothing. Even, "How close you are to death" is a purely meta-game concept that doesn't actually exist in the game. As was mentioned, if the DM tracks HP, the player now knows absolutely nothing from the mechanics of the game.

Imagine a game where you are not told your HP, not told how much damage an attack does. Just told hit or miss. What could you do with that information? If the mechanics were simulating something, you should know, from the mechanics, some information. But, all you know is an completely abstract number that doesn't actually mean anything.
It's all equally pretend. Whether the game designers supplied mechanics for injuries, or whether a group decides that for themselves. Every game glosses over or elides - there are vast omissions.

That's how narrative works. It's Sunday, and then it's Tuesday. We're at the diner, and then we're on the street outside L's apartment.

It's a question of where we prefer to focus? If a group want to go into the specifics of injury, their sessions will spend more time on that. They will never, ever realistically know or narrate every detail.
 


Do you mean in terms of choice of focus for the session? Focus on day-to-day rather than heroic events?
No, I still want to focus on heroic events. PCs IMO are ordinary people who get caught up in extraordinary events and through cunning, luck, and skill manage to win the day.

But, as I mentioned, I want those skills and accomplishments to happen through more real-world mechanics and rules that model real-life more accurately. For example, flight speeds in D&D are ridiculously slow given the movement rules for moving and dashing. A hawk has a flight speed of 60, which even with always dashing would be less than 14 mph. Of course, the rule in the DMG would have them only flying 6 mph. Hawks fly much faster than that, even just "cruising" and not trying to fly as fast as they can.

One approach is to take the game as simulating a world different from our own. One where the implications are taken sincerely.
Yes, that is an approach but not one I want to do, personally.
 

It's all equally pretend. Whether the game designers supplied mechanics for injuries, or whether a group decides that for themselves. Every game glosses over or elides - there are vast omissions.
Again, there is a very large difference between "This simulation is very vague and doesn't supply much information" and "This system supplies no information at all."

As @pemerton mentioned, taking a piece in Chess is not a simulation of anything. Nothing in chess is meant as a simulation of anything. Same as poker. A poker hand doesn't represent anything at all other than what it means inside the game of Poker. A simulation, at the most basic level, MUST represent something. And in order to represent something it has to tell you some information about that thing.

But, D&D doesn't. Levels are a pure gamist element that don't simulate anything. No one gets to be a better blacksmith by killing orcs. Hit points and Hit Dice are fantastic game elements that are tons of fun - and the fact that so many other games copy the system shows just how fun it is - but, they don't actually represent anything. They don't mean anything.

Virtually nothing in D&D actually has any sort of correlation to the in game fiction. That's because D&D isn't a simulation. It's not supposed to have correlation. It's not supposed to tell you anything, any more than taking a knight with your pawn tells you anything. Of course players react to the loss of HP, becuase the PLAYER knows these things. But since the loss of HP, or the gain of HP or the gaining of a level doesn't actually tell you anything, it's not a simulation of anything.
 

FWIW, other systems I do play which have impact due to damage are Vampire and Shadowrun (older editions anyway).

Yes, they are just numeric penalties, but they at least show there is a difference between being 100% and less than that. Both also indicate a descriptive of the "level" of injuries sustained.

Vampire
1650195459240.png


Shadowrun
1650195574380.png


I think this is why I love exhaustion in 5E so much, it is the closest thing in comparison.
 
Last edited:

Seems rather unhelpful to conversation to fold “Genre (or High Concept) Emulation” in with “Simulation” (when we all know well and good what the lead poster is referring to and how they are delineated from each other around the edges). I've been as big of a proponent of as any of advocating for the "D&D is not Simulation" (it clearly emulates a particular genre...that increasingly being the unique genre unto itself...which was yet another reason why 4e had pushback; the genre emulation of 4e D&D was boldly/aggressively drifted) premise over the years, but the idea that we're just going to (whether willfully or merely by accident) obliterate the concept from the lexicon is not great.

* Does the system have an injury/attrition model that is not a broad abstraction like HP/death save?

* Is recovery from a significant level of attrition relatively easy or is it apt to create a feedback loop/spiral?

* Is the system quite granular around all the various inputs and interactions governing action resolution or not?

* Is the system meaningfully granular (meaning the granularity bears consequences for actual play and those consequences hew to reality to a fair degree) around inventory/loadout/encumbrance/economy management or not?

* Are there Proud Nail-ish game artifacts that are fundamentally baked into the system (eg the consequences upon play of diverse resources scheduling/recovery among Classes + The Adventuring Day) as a matter of design or not?


These are some (but surely not all) of the questions that the OP is asking. You've already gotten several good recommendations @DND_Reborn (BRP for instance), so I don't have anything new to add on that end. The only thing I have to add is that the answer to your question is that non-4e D&D is Genre Emulation or a brand of (bordering on kitchen sink) tropes that have accreted for decades (and we all know what those tropes are). And that emulation is inextricably linked to very, very game-intensive (both designed in and derived from play over the course of decades) artifacts.
 
Last edited:

Functions such as?
Well, pretty broadly, game balance (a vast topic all to itself), simplicity, speed of use, practicality, and genre-/trope-support. None of these things actually intersects with "simulation" as I had understood the term. Hence why, even though 4e's rules are quite good at producing what one might call "high fantasy action movie" tropes, people who like simulationism tended to be very sour on it because it was not much concerned about rigidly justifying the physical process of daily/encounter powers nor the internal logic of Second Winds or Action Points.

For example, 4e's "square fireballs" that people liked to poke fun of (and, amazingly, sometimes with affection rather than scorn). A grid is already somewhat un-simulationist (since we know space doesn't actually exist on a grid), but 4e goes a step further by using Chebyshev or "chessboard" geometry, where diagonal distances are equal to rectilinear distances. This is often cited as outright anti-simulationist, at least by self-identified pro-sim folks I've known. It certainly doesn't follow your assertion of simulating a type of fiction, at least not as far as I'm aware.

Yep. This seems nonsensical if you've misconstrued the purpose of the simulation. We are not simulating a world with rational biology for academic study. We are at best simulating heroic action fiction for entertainment. There's a strong argument that we aren't even simulating a heroic action fiction world - just the fiction itself. Heroic action fiction has dramatic highs and lows - one way we simulate those is by driving the character down and up in hit points.
I had been given to understand that that was what "simulation" usually referred to: attempting to generate rationally-expected results, as though it were a real place with rules analogous to the rules that govern our world (just a different set thereof). Hence why pro-"simulationist" folks really dislike things like monsters using different rules than PCs, even though monsters rarely get the opportunity to actually use the vast majority of rules players care about. Consistency across manifestations, and the ability to rationally predict how things will work based purely on a qualitative understanding of what they are (rather than a quantitative understanding of the actual rules invoked). E.g., Wikipedia describes it as, "Simulationism maintains a self-contained universe operating independent of player will; events unfold according to internal rules."

That "self-contained universe operating independent[ly]" thing doesn't seem to jive with your description of "simulating heroic action fiction alone, no world involved--that instead sounds like narrativism, where the goal is to produce certain kinds of narratives (in this case, heroic action narratives in a high fantasy milieu) even if that requires nonphysical or even non-independent operations within the world (e.g. "fate points," "bennies," etc.) Now, perhaps I've had a bad working understanding of "simulationism," but it's...more than a little surprising that it took over a decade to learn that I had been fundamentally misunderstanding the term this entire time.

Well, certainly not a realistic simulation, but it works pretty well for simulating action movie combat, for instance.
See above. This sounds to me like dissolving any difference that might be had between "narrativism" and "simulationism," turning it into one big mass of "performing a thing" rather than "playing a thing." A conflation of "performance" in the sense of acting and "performance" in the sense of system architecture, e.g. "that was a lovely performance of Macbeth" and "if we can solve this problem, we can increase performance by 25%."
 

I think this is why I love exhaustion in 5E so much, it is the closest thing in comparison.
I just wish it weren't, y'know, so horrifically punishing and shoehorned into places that don't actually result in interesting consequences (like the chase rules, where literally no one will ever want to risk 2 levels of exhaustion, and will rarely even want to risk 1, since most "end the chase" things require making some kind of ability check.)
 

These are some (but surely not all) of the questions that the OP is asking. You've already gotten several good recommendations @DND_Reborn (BRP for instance), so I don't have anything new to add on that end. The only thing I have to add is that the answer to your question is that D&D is non-4e D&D is Genre Emulation or a brand of (bordering on kitchen sink) tropes that have accreted for decades (and we all know what those tropes are). And that emulation is inextricably linked to very, very game-intensive (both designed in and derived from play over the course of decades) artifacts.
Yep, lots of good suggestions that I'll be reviewing (as best I can) over the next few weeks. :)

I just wish it weren't, y'know, so horrifically punishing and shoehorned into places that don't actually result in interesting consequences (like the chase rules, where literally no one will ever want to risk 2 levels of exhaustion, and will rarely even want to risk 1, since most "end the chase" things require making some kind of ability check.)
I don't mind them being as punishing as they are, personally, but if there was more granularity it probably wouldn't bother me, either.

Chase rules? Oi... :rolleyes: Don't get me started. ;)
 

Remove ads

Top