D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

Lyxen

Great Old One
Yeah see, I don't, because it makes running the game faster for me. but most of the other DM's I've played at do, and that can lead to "ok he's fine, he's fine, she's fine, my turn is about to come up HOLY CARP!" moments when someone takes a massive outlier hit, and then I have to heal them and well, lol. Good luck with that.

We have always played that way, and it happened to me just last Friday in our Odyssey of the Dragonlords campaign, was running diversion while the others were getting the prisonners to safety (my Paladin is half-siren and can fly as long as I don't wear my best armor), but the adversaries woke up the resident dragon, who chased me (it was a bit like this, actually :) ). I managed to get the dragon more or less in range of the others before it cornered me, so I turned to face him and managed to get some solid hits with smite, so the dragon's rider called his mount back to him, but retaliated with a sort of barbed javelin. I was not feeling too bad in terms of hit points, but the DM rolled extremely well, and I dropped. Fortunately, I had reduced my altitude to be below the level of the cliffs, so the fall did not pulp me, and the others managed to recover me.

It was a really cool sequence, in retrospect, and the bad luck on the roll was part of it, with little consequence since I was the only one down, and we were retreating anyway, the whole garrison was after us with two gorgons on top of the guards, plus the boss and his dragon, etc.

For us, rolling is part of the game, the planning that we do takes into account the fact that, just as in the genre, sh*t happens, and we need to be able to deal with it. :)
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
Well, honestly, I don't know. I see the 6-8 encounters comment brought up a lot in game balance discussions, and it seems like a standard reply for a lot of people to say that, if you run your games by that benchmark (which I know isn't a benchmark at all, but...) you won't have any problems. Since I was told rather pointedly that you can't establish a consensus for discussing the game when I made a thread about it, I've decided the best way to go forward is to point out that I have no experience with this type of 5e game.

My perspective is that it's indeed the only point of reference to compare effects on the game, because otherwise there is so much variation that it's hard to find common ground. Moreover, if you have fewer encounters, you start running into nova effects, which are very circumstantial depending on party composition. So it's a kind of benchmark, as it averages things rather than creating spikes. But I don't think I've seen people around saying that they actually run games using mostly that category/number of encounters.
 

Totally.
They got kind of a bad rap because you did have to fill up on healing spells .... but ....
You had total niche protection (because you had the healz!).
You were a very competent front-line fighter.
You could also turn the undead- not a small thing.
Clerics rocked. And in B/X, the fighting gap between clerics and fighters was relatively small.

Fighters had most of their class features tied up in the magic item treasure charts, so the fighting gap was fundamentally governed by the magic item drops. Swords were 20% of magic items in total in BX's basic, all other weapons and armor 20% combined, with 3/8 of it cleric-excluding. In expert it got split out to Swords 1-20, armor 21-30, and misc weapons 31-35 (with maces, slings and warhammers accounting for 31% of that total. Swords in particular having most of the gravy special abilities like '+1, +3 vs.', flaming, casting light, draining life, being intelligent*, etc.
*yes, a double-edge sword there.

It is worth pointing out that turning undead wasn't only not a small thing, it was often huge. Undead could drain levels and other nasty things (at a point were 'of course you'll be able to find someone who can reverse it' was not an established norm), and didn't have to make morale checks (huge!).
 


Staffan

Legend
Come to think of it, a big part of the issue here is: at what time scale do you want to be challenged?

In AD&D, this was not really a thing that had been thought about. The overall game was not so much planned as a bunch of emergent things. To what degree there was a time scale, it was the day or longer.

3e was the first edition to actually design around a particular time scale. The DMG went into some detail on how a typical adventuring day would have four encounters of varying levels, with the idea being that an encounter with the same level as the party would consume 20-25% of your available resources (primarily hit points and spells (in which I include similar daily abilities like Lay on Hands or Bardic Music)). So while any one fight would be seen as "easy", by the time you get to the fourth fight you're in bad shape which makes it actually dangerous. There were three problems with this approach:
  • What I like to call the "Britannia*" problem: it is hard to gauge how well you're doing. You've been in one fight, and now the Rogue is at half hp, the wizard has cast her fireball, and the cleric has cast one bless and one cure moderate wounds to heal up the fighter. Is this good or bad?
  • Unless there is an element of time pressure, you can usually retreat from the dungeon, rest up, and go at it again ("The five-minute adventuring day").
  • The wand of cure light wounds (or its later cousin, wand of lesser vigor) nullifies hp attrition, so the only real attrition becomes spells.
4e instead focused hard on the individual encounter as the "challenge unit". Some resources/abilities were daily, but the focus was on the actual encounter being dangerous in itself, and after the encounter you'd be able to replenish most of your expended resources. 5e returned to a mostly daily-focused resource model, with a small number of abilities restored on a short rest which is not really the same as encounter abilities (since it takes an hour to restore them, not five minutes).

I posit that if your goal is to make the game's challenge about attrition over the course of a day, you will generally not be able to make healing an interesting combat role. If someone's taking enough damage to require in-combat healing, something has gone seriously wrong. If you want in-combat healing to be a thing, you need to have the game balanced around challenging individual encounters.

* Britannia is an old board game where each player plays a sequence of tribes/peoples invading Britain, starting with the Romans and ending with the Normans. Over the course of the game each player might play 4-5 different tribes, and the game is scored at various points depending on how many areas each tribe is controlling. However, one of the players is of course playing the Romans, and that player's points are strongly front-loaded. So just because that player has 2-3 times as many points as other players, it doesn't necessarily mean they're "ahead", because they're not getting many more points – but that makes it hard to gauge how well the different players are actually doing.
 

pemerton

Legend
I posit that if your goal is to make the game's challenge about attrition over the course of a day, you will generally not be able to make healing an interesting combat role.
It's possible to have encounter-level resources in a game that, overall, is focused on "the day" as its unit of attrition/recovery; an (imperfect) example is Adrenal Moves in Rolemaster.

To adopt this into a healing paradigm: you could introduce encounter-level debuffs that are not part of the overall attrition framework (eg stunned, dazed, disoriented, dazzled, etc); and then encounter-level recoveries/heals of these conditions. 5e D&D has a bit, but not an overwhelming amount, of the debuff stuff; I don't think it has much of the recovery stuff.
 

Staffan

Legend
It's possible to have encounter-level resources in a game that, overall, is focused on "the day" as its unit of attrition/recovery; an (imperfect) example is Adrenal Moves in Rolemaster.
Adrenal moves in Rolemaster seem more like at-will abilities with the caveat that you can't use them in consecutive rounds. Unless there are variants in sourcebooks beyond the core books, which given the expansiveness of Rolemaster is eminently possible.

Pure per-encounter abilities are pretty rare in RPGs, because few are as brazenly gamist as 4e. Late 3e had some abilities that were effectively per-encounter by putting them on a short timer (e.g. lots of Binder powers recharged in 5 rounds, which is longer than most fights). You could get some abilities in Warhammer 3rd ed that had "cooldowns", but that's basically the same thing.

I think White Wolf's Street Fighter, of all games, actually comes close. It's been a really long time since I played it, and I only did so briefly, but as I recall you had two power resources: Ki and Willpower. Ki recharged per fight, and Willpower per day.
 

pemerton

Legend
Adrenal moves in Rolemaster seem more like at-will abilities with the caveat that you can't use them in consecutive rounds. Unless there are variants in sourcebooks beyond the core books, which given the expansiveness of Rolemaster is eminently possible.
RMC IV has rules for sustaining adrenal moves. The penalties when the character comes out of the move are proportionate to the number of rounds sustained, and step down over time.

As I said, they're an imperfect example. Another is Shrugging It Off in Burning Wheel (which is a type of self-healing, comparable in some ways to Second Wind).
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
As I said, they're an imperfect example. Another is Shrugging It Off in Burning Wheel (which is a type of self-healing, comparable in some ways to Second Wind).
It sounds like they're both modeling the same fictional concept- the moment in an action scene where the protagonist wipes their brow/collects themselves and marshals their strength to continue fighting, after suffering some punishment.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Vegas Forgotten Realms 1492
Mr. Knievel did not make the 141 foot jump just before midnight. But This afternoon at 5 PM he will try again. There are no such things as daredevils in the Realms with healing in 5E.
 

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