D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

[GMforPowergamers]

Minions are just a game construct. It's totally possible for the same Ogre to first show up as a Solo because of how powerful it is, then it runs away and show up as an Elite a couple level later, and then again as just one out of a couple of regular monsters, and finally you take him down in one hit when he shows up as a minion levels later.

A minion's single HP doesn't mean it only has 1 HP, it just means that its HP are too low to be worth tracking.

i loved that about minions. The idea that I can use an orc as a regular threat at level 3 and as a minion at level 13

 

[Lyxen]

More or less. When the scales can tip one way or the other, you try to mitigate the "luck" aspect with sound tactical decisions.

Which you can do better if the luck is not as prevalent.

Yep, but... you can have both.

You can have both, but you have limited time to play, that's all. If you spend a whole evening on a fight, like what we did with 3e and 4e, then you won't have time for the story that evening.

A very story focused game where combat becomes as important as the story. Role playing and Roll playing can be combined to make a whole greater than its parts. I have no less role playing in my games than any narrative games out there that I have seen. The difference is that once combat is initiated, it is as if the movie was put under a lens and the action begins. Sometimes, we can have two to three sessions where not a single combat occur while at other times, a string of combats can last two session and we have the whole gamut in between the two extremes. Some combats are very fast others can be slow depending on the stakes. Role playing is never let down in favour of combat though...

It's just a question of time balance, and why we want to keep our fights short.

What my style does have a weakness however. It is that an adventure "path" might take longer to complete than in a traditional play method. Strahd took us almost a year and a half to complete while I know some DM that went through it in barely 6 months and we have the same session's length which is about 4 to 5 hours of play each week. It is also a very gritty style where low level characters can and will die if played recklessly. As the players are getting the hang of the gritty rules, the "death count" has dropped by quite a margin.

To every table their style, and honestly, I'm all with Sanderson there, "Journey before Destination", our campaigns last years and we are never trying to get the the end quicker. Still, it's better for us if we spend what time we have available for story rather than for lengthy fights, again personal preferences.

 

[Lyxen]

i loved that about minions. The idea that I can use an orc as a regular threat at level 3 and as a minion at level 13

And you can do that in 5e and the best thing is that you don't even have to change the stats, they are still applicable, rather than creating bizarre things that you still call orcs but are artificially way more dangerous and resilient but still die in 1 hit.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And you can do that in 5e and the best thing is that you don't even have to change the stats, they are still applicable, rather than creating bizarre things that you still call orcs but are artificially way more dangerous and resilient but still die in 1 hit.

you say best I say worst.

in 4e 3 oger minions have an AC worth rolling against (not auto hit) but 1 hit ends them. in 5e 3 oger minions have ACs that are low (but still not auto hit but close) and I have to track hp on. And while 3 isn't too many once you get larger numbers it becomes a nightmare.

I tried to run 50 orcs swarming a teens level ranger and teens level fighter/barbarian and it was SO annoying. I finally just house ruled them to have +2 more to hit and do average +1 damage and 1hp each... just to make it easier to run.

 

[Lyxen]

you say best I say worst.

in 4e 3 oger minions have an AC worth rolling against (not auto hit) but 1 hit ends them. in 5e 3 oger minions have ACs that are low (but still not auto hit but close) and I have to track hp on. And while 3 isn't too many once you get larger numbers it becomes a nightmare.

And that is a totally unfair comparison since you would never put 50 minions in 4e anyway, they would slaughter a group.

And honestly, I have tracked HP for scores of monster before (for example in AD&D) and it's really easy with pen and paper and even easier with a VTT.

If that is the only objection that you have to avoid using simple monsters simply instead of creating monsters that are purely gaming constructs and zero reason to be as they are in the game world, well let's just say that we don't have the same conception of a TTRPG.

I tried to run 50 orcs swarming a teens level ranger and teens level fighter/barbarian and it was SO annoying. I finally just house ruled them to have +2 more to hit and do average +1 damage and 1hp each... just to make it easier to run.

If that's what it takes, good for you, I never had that problem running hordes of monster in particular in AD&D.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And that is a totally unfair comparison since you would never put 50 minions in 4e anyway, they would slaughter a group.

I'm sorry what? you never had double diggit minnions? I swear the orginal adventure path had like 40-50 ghouls in e2

And honestly, I have tracked HP for scores of monster before (for example in AD&D) and it's really easy with pen and paper and even easier with a VTT.

I will admit teh VTT makes it easier, but it is still a pain when you can just pop them if they get hit

If that is the only objection that you have to avoid using simple monsters simply instead of creating monsters that are purely gaming constructs and zero reason to be as they are in the game world, well let's just say that we don't have the same conception of a TTRPG.

your right we don't... I want to make a story and just have the rules work for it. I don't want my story limited by the rules.

If that's what it takes, good for you, I never had that problem running hordes of monster in particular in AD&D.

in AD&D it was worse (although the rule that fighters could take 1 extra attack per level against less then 1HD monsters did help) but at least the hp bloat of 3e+ wasn't there...

 

[Lyxen]

I'm sorry what? you never had double diggit minnions? I swear the orginal adventure path had like 40-50 ghouls in e2

And that would be silly, and totally against encounter building. I've had a quick look in E2 and the most I could find was 10 ghouls (abyssal horde ghouls, level 26 ghouls... sigh) or 10 mercs (which I wonder where they found, these are identical mercenaries at level 24, rolls eyes).

I will admit teh VTT makes it easier, but it is still a pain when you can just pop them if they get hit

your right we don't... I want to make a story and just have the rules work for it. I don't want my story limited by the rules.

Except it's exactly the contrary, the rules of 4e dictate that you create minions of the appropriate level and create them for that purpose, so this is what drives your story. In 5e, I just decide that the story calls for a horde of orcs, I don't even have to look at the rules, I just use the orcs that I have, with the added bonus that they are not special bizarre orcs incredibly dangerous but very fragile, technically created out of the blue to satisfy arbitrary system constraints.

in AD&D it was worse (although the rule that fighters could take 1 extra attack per level against less then 1HD monsters did help) but at least the hp bloat of 3e+ wasn't there...

Never was and never is a problem, I just put the HP on a blank piece of paper and scratch numbers, takes less time than it takes me to write this.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Except it's exactly the contrary, the rules of 4e dictate that you create minions of the appropriate level and create them for that purpose, so this is what drives your story.

um what!?!?

so I write my story and want 10 orcs... then I look to see if 10 solider elites work or if 3 soldier regular and 4 minions and 1 artillary elite with 2 skirmisher regualars... look at that they fit

In 5e, I just decide that the story calls for a horde of orcs, I don't even have to look at the rules,

BS... if you cared about encountrt guidelinse in 4e why not 5e that STILL has guidelines...

I just use the orcs that I have, with the added bonus that they are not special bizarre orcs incredibly dangerous but very fragile, technically created out of the blue to satisfy arbitrary system constraints.

there is nothing bizarre about minnions

Never was and never is a problem, I just put the HP on a blank piece of paper and scratch numbers, takes less time than it takes me to write this.

then track what box of HP goes with what mini

 

[James Gasik]

Mind you, Minions became a lot less of a threat once they printed Beguiling Strands.

 

[Helldritch]

Which you can do better if the luck is not as prevalent.

I see the exact reverse of your claim almost daily when we do our friday night dungeon. Lots of people are complaining that fighting is chore that you just can push through without thinking. It depends a lot on the experience of both the players and the DM. At least, with a bit of swinginess, players must be on the prudent side and it forces them to think before jumping in the fray.

You can have both, but you have limited time to play, that's all. If you spend a whole evening on a fight, like what we did with 3e and 4e, then you won't have time for the story that evening.

Well, I have limited time to play with two groups plus the friday night dungeon that is once or twice a month. I guess time is very very relative here...

It's just a question of time balance, and why we want to keep our fights short.

Again, time is very relative to use your terms. We have the best of both world.

To every table their style, and honestly, I'm all with Sanderson there, "Journey before Destination", our campaigns last years and we are never trying to get the the end quicker. Still, it's better for us if we spend what time we have available for story rather than for lengthy fights, again personal preferences.

I am not the one going to the end quicker here. It depends on what you call a campaign which is very relative. My campaign has been ongoing for 30 years now. With different groups and people.

And the fights are part of the Journey, not the destination. It means that I am in the right track here