D&D 5E What is Quality?

[Irlo]

The idea that a 17 year old kid microwaving a hamburger tossing together from company demanded proportions and then wrapping it up (hopefully carefully) in a waxed paper sheet is of comparable quality to the hamburger that I could get from a master chef with hundreds of hours of training, thousands of hours of practical work experience using only the highest quality of ingredients is laughable. But it's this attitude that expertise and training counts for nothing and that that all judgements of quality are solely subjective, thus, all judgements of quality are equal is so prevalent.

Well, no, they're not of comparable quality. I would say that the burgers have very different qualities. How we value those qualities and how we experience them is necessarily subjective. Expertise and training don't count for nothing. They lead to burgers that you and I are more likely to enjoy. But which burger is better is not an objective assessment.

Are there subjective qualities to any judgment of quality? Of course there are. Which criteria you choose to judge will be partly subjective if nothing else. But, that doesn't make judgements of quality subjective, nor does it mean that all judgments are even remotely equal.

Is it useful to suppose some judgments are superior, rather than just different? Especially when we're talking about burgers and RPGs?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I know this wasn’t directed at me but …. Oh my goodness, absolutely yes I do.

Clocks are often works of art. Watches are often jewellery. These items often far exceed the design brief of a hammer.

But are they not still tools?

They still DO something. They still have a FUNCTION. That function may not be the primary purpose of their existence (e.g., Big Ben does not primarily exist to perform the function of a clock, but rather as a cultural icon, a touchstone of stability, and a demonstration of a preserved aesthetic from a prior era). But that function is still undeniably present.

An engine is also a tool, by definition; it turns fuel (or electricity) into motion. But I would call the classic Bugatti engines I have seen works of art, because their motion can be beautiful just to look at (sadly, only on TV, but still).

Thor's hammer is also a tool, but its primary focus is its cultural and aesthetic significance. Language is a tool. Calling something a tool is not mockery. It is simply being honest about what kind of thing it is.

 

[Oofta]

One weird trick…statisticians hate this guy!

A minority of games reach 13th level. Of the parties that reach 13th level, a non-negligible amount of them do not has a caster that can cast Simulcrum. Even among parties of the correct level with access to the spell, there are many reasons a player may not cast it (not interested in the spell, did not have the components, does not have 12 hours to cast, etc.).

So, it is fair to say, that except for a minority of the minority, Simulcrum does not figure in their evaluation of the design quality of the game except in the abstract.

However, among parties that have reached 13th level and that have casters with both access to Simulcrum and an opportunity to use it, it seems that there is a high proportion of tables that ban it, nerf it, or otherwise consider that it unbalances the game to an unacceptable degree. So, among those for whom it is a relevant concern, it seems that Simulcrum is not a well-designed spell.

Just another reason that the popularity of a game is irrelevant to determining whether individual components are well-designed.

I don't believe every single aspect of any complex system has to be well designed for the overall system to have a good design. If enough are poorly designed it's a different story. For example 3.x started falling apart after 14th level or so because optimized casters became so powerful that the rest of the party may as well have been baggage carriers. I don't see that level of broken in 5E. Then again I don't allow Pun-Pun or simulcrum shenanigans because I believe the simulcrum interpretation that allows it is questionable at best.

 

[Irlo]

But are they not still tools?

They are more than one thing.

The vast majority of clocks are chosen for aesthetic purposes as well as time-keeping. Look in the home decor section of any department store.

 

[Oofta]

No. I call it badly designed ed because it’s vague, works poorly and requires the dm to make too many determinations without giving sufficient support.

Compared to say the 4e stealth rules which were clear (eventually), intuitive and very simple to use.

Even the 3e stealth rules were quite good and considerably better than the pretty much complete lack of rules in 5e.

“Figure it out yourself” is very bad game design.

There were multiple times in 4E when we would look at each other, say "How the f*** does that work" and then just shrug and say "them's the rules". I don't think you can design stealth rules that work in every instance, on the other hand I've never had anyone in 5E have much of an issue with the stealth rules during an actual game and never once a "How the f*** does that work".

 

[DND_Reborn]

I've never had anyone in 5E have much of an issue with the stealth rules during an actual game and never once a "How the f*** does that work".

Honestly, that amazes me.

 

[Oofta]

Honestly, that amazes me.

What can I say? Maybe I'm just such an amazing DM I pulled the wool over their eyes. Which, of course, means they're blind so I can sneak attack!

But seriously, I don't recall it ever being an issue in my home games or AL. If I DM I explain the basics of how I run it during our session 0, if I'm playing I just ask the DM if I can hide if it's unclear. No matter how many rules we throw at it, stealth will always either come down to judgement calls or hard and fast rules that have loopholes or situations that aren't covered. No set of rules can be 100% comprehensive.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Breeds of car? Is... is that how you think cars are made?

when a mommy car and a daddy car love each other...

 

[Mort]

Honestly, that amazes me.

It shouldn't - the Posters on this board are often experienced DMs - they can make it work.

Heck if I can run a RIFTS (palladium not the fancy Savage Worlds version) game smoothly and without players getting tripped up by the rules - I can sure resolve 5e stealth without issue at the table!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Heck if I can run a RIFTS (palladium not the fancy Savage Worlds version) game smoothly and without players getting tripped up by the rules - I can sure resolve 5e stealth without issue at the table!

I love Rifts, it was my first TTRPG, and I still have multi books on my shelf for it... and I'm not sure I believe that is just the DM... I think you need all the players to have at least a Associates Degree in Rifts to run it that way.