D&D 5E What is Quality?

LadyElect

Explorer
The idea that a 17 year old kid microwaving a hamburger tossing together from company demanded proportions and then wrapping it up (hopefully carefully) in a waxed paper sheet is of comparable quality to the hamburger that I could get from a master chef with hundreds of hours of training, thousands of hours of practical work experience using only the highest quality of ingredients is laughable. But it's this attitude that expertise and training counts for nothing and that that all judgements of quality are solely subjective, thus, all judgements of quality are equal is so prevalent.
This is understandable given the exaggeration of the example, but I don’t think that the underlying sentiment is necessarily accurate, at least for my view of it. I’ve just found after decades of forum discourse that being circular and abstracting out the philosophy of why and how we like things, while still resolving nothing, at least manages to be more personally amusing than trying to sway anyone off of how they value something.

I mean I do firmly believe in the irrefutably subjective nature of individual evaluation, but that doesn’t mean I won’t still poke fun at my friends for their media loves or food quirks when they give some absurdly minority opinion. Saying you “don’t like garnish” doesn’t make any damn sense [redacted]—it’s a verb, a category; not an ingredient!
 

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It shouldn't - the Posters on this board are often experienced DMs - they can make it work.

Heck if I can run a RIFTS (palladium not the fancy Savage Worlds version) game smoothly and without players getting tripped up by the rules - I can sure resolve 5e stealth without issue at the table!
The source of quality comes not from the game or rules but from the person running it.
 


Hussar

Legend
I don't see how that relates to my post.
You were asking about correlation between likes/doesn't like 5e and fudges/doesn't fudge.

However, having criticisms of a game doesn't mean that you don't like it. So, there is sometimes a tendency to see criticism as a sign of not liking something or outright hating it.

That was the point I was making.
 

Hussar

Legend
Well, no, they're not of comparable quality. I would say that the burgers have very different qualities. How we value those qualities and how we experience them is necessarily subjective. Expertise and training don't count for nothing. They lead to burgers that you and I are more likely to enjoy. But which burger is better is not an objective assessment.

Is it useful to suppose some judgments are superior, rather than just different? Especially when we're talking about burgers and RPGs?
You absolutely can objectively say that one is better than the other. 100%.

Better quality, better presentation, better nutrition, better taste, etc. Now, many of the things we judge on are based on the common person standard, which can be a bit fuzzy, sure, but, that doesn't make it subjective. There is no Platonic ideal of objectivity where a tiny drop of subjectivity makes something subjective. That's a ridiculous standard.

And, yes, it is absolutely useful to suppose that some judgements are superior. Because if we don't, then we accept bad faith arguments as valid as well as simply uniformed judgements as equally valid. The notion that all judgements are equal gets right back to the whole anti-intellectual thread that pollutes any conversation like this.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
They are more than one thing.

The vast majority of clocks are chosen for aesthetic purposes as well as time-keeping. Look in the home decor section of any department store.
I've bought some of those clocks. Very pretty. Didn't tell time well, kept losing minutes per day. Went into the trash, despite the fact they were still pretty and I liked how they looked. A pretty clock that doesn't tell time is, at best, a piece of art not a clock.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Now this? You won't hear me argue about any of this.

4e aimed to be maximally transparent. I'm fairly sure Heinsoo and the other designers thought that if the rules were clear and clean, no muss no fuss, that they would be giving people what they wanted, rules that "fall away" or "get out of the way" because there would be no difficulty in seeing how they worked. As soon as you knew what a certain keyword meant, you would know what it meant everywhere. Learn the basic lingo, and everything else falls into place. This would free players and DMs to tell the stories they liked, unburdened by cumbersome verbiage that many of them would have ignored anyway.

This proved incorrect. Many players disliked the layout and presentation, seeing it as sterile and formulaic. Even though spells have always been formulaic, this made their formulaic nature seemingly too obvious. Despite flowery natural language being objectively more difficult to parse (consider the many complaints in ye olden dayse about how difficult it was to use 3e monster star locks), players valued the texture and implicit weight of that presentation, even if they never actually intended to use even a single sentence of it (whether due to not wanting that specific item/spell/etc., using a homebrew world where such details would be overridden, using house-rules that modified things too far, etc.)

I would in fact call this an objective decrease in quality, making the game more opaque, more involved to use, because a degree of "clunky" engagement, where you must carefully parse the whole text of (say) a particular spell in order to use it correctly, is in fact desirable to many existing players. It is less desirable to  new players, but 5e was always about targeting lapsed fans well enough to keep things going. New players were always a secondary concern. If it had been meant for new players specifically, I can guarantee the early levelling experience would have been quite a bit different.
New players were always a secondary concern until now. Now they're about 80-90% of what they care about.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
This is one of the sentiments I have never understood.

It is always possible to add more ambiguity. It is difficult, if not impossible, to remove baked-in ambiguity. Why is it better to cater to you, who can always add the ambiguity you desire, than it is to cater to those who want rigor and clarity? A clear picture can always be blurred. A blurred picture cannot be made clear again, that is kind of the point of blurring it.
Because at the time, more people cared about ambiguity than cared about rigor and clarity.
 

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