D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024

[Snarf Zagyg]

Really? That’s interesting; I never heard that before. I always assumed taking a PC from one game to the next was just handwaved for the purposes of getting down to the dungeon crawl. Did people actually roleplay as if their characters were from separate greyhawk timelines?

Weirdly, the best written example comes from the FR Gray Box (DM Source Book)-

Bringing characters from other worlds-
...These characters may come over because of the demise of their native world, the discovery of a portal to the Realms, or the fact they have gotten too tough for their homeland. The last case occurs in Krynn, home of the Dragonlances, where individuals of incredible strength and power are politely asked to leave by the powers-
that-be. Many end up in the Forgotten Realms.
The world of the Forgotten Realms, Abeir-Toril, has a huge number of portals and other gate-type devices which link that world with other areas of the Realms, with the Outer Planes, and with alternative material planes containing other AD&D® campaigns. (Rules for adapting characters follow).

The rules for AD&D are contained within the DMG,the "Campaign Section" (shortly before SIxguns & Sorcery and Mutants & Magic section) pgs. 110-11, discussing integration of players from other campaigns.

See also-
Thus, in my ”Greyhawk Campaign” I included an “Alice In Wonderland” level, and while it is a deadly place, those who have adventured through it have uniformly pro- claimed it as great fun because it is the antithesis of the campaign as a whole. Similarly, there are places where adventurers can journey to a land of pure Greek mythology, into the future where the island of King Kong awaits their pleasure, or through the multiverse to different planets, including Jack Vance’s “Planet of Adventure”, where they hunt sequins in the Carabas while Dirdir and Dirdirmen hunt them.

But as a matter of course, this is usually hand-waived unless there is a major difference in settings.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, you may not care for "classic" snarf, but "new" snarf was just terrible! It was like they were trying to copy a competitor, but didn't acknowledge what made classic snarf so unique.

Thank goodness it wasn't on the shelf for long before good ol' snarf returned. Although some people still say it was just a marketing scheme.

Just you wait ... my brand is branching out..

Crystal Snarf.
Diet Snarf.
Snarf Zero.
Snarf Blak.
Snarf Life.
Zima.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

It could also be my lack of understanding. I own all the old Greyhawk material in PDF form, but I'm curious, what aesthetics really stand out about Greyhawk too you? This isn't in bad faith — I just want to see what about it makes it stand out for its long time fans!

I liked this comment since it would appear that you might have read about the setting.

One thing that becomes hard to track is what influences other memories have on the setting materials. For some like me, things we read and experienced include a little dragon magazine, material from modules and so on—-the campaign material alone is pretty bare bones.

And the old art probably got linked in the eyes of fans even if peripherally related. It forms a zeitgeist. I think of cloaks and kilts in grey hawk and cravats and frilly sleeves in the realms.

I can say that not every corner being filled in is a draw. There are effective hints of ominous things. There is mystery—-I know enough about tharizdun to be interested and wary but not enough to be too familiar and habituated.

Less is not a feel though or aesthetic in itself! But I get a more medieval vs Renaissance feel from grey hawk. It feels more 1300s to me and leas 1450-1500. And some acid trip mixed in…

Things don’t fit together too conveniently. Yes there are some good orders but there aren’t harpers on every corner. (Thank pelor!). The materials suggest less omniscient players in the world. There are secrets and a lot of things stay secret.

I like the naming better for people and places—-as absurd some of their origins are. The deities? Wee Jas, Hextor and Pelor? Yeah. I like them better personally. How is the feel different. Hard to explain.

Some of it is admittedly hard to pin down. But I would say this: I don’t buy the criticism that it’s been done by realms. Why bother?

For me it’s like saying Nu Metal did power chords and wall of sound…Why listen to Black Sabbath?! Let me count the reasons. And watch me struggle to explain them.

Yeah it’s more blues infused. No? Not enough? It’s darker. New music uses minor chords too? It’s got a dark syrupy fuzzed out sound that hints at something dark.

Yeah well I never listened to it much, why would I? Yes, it’s hard to draw short pithy lines of distinctions but it’s different. I swear.

I would say the real question here is would it have an audience. I don’t know. When I saw Black Sabbath in concert in the 90s, there were a lot of younger people going nuts for them (self included!).

Would it sell like some of the more familiar stuff? That’s the rub and that’s the question. People know and lap up the realms…it’s had a lot more love and familiarity breeds liking.

But for me Black Sabbath is no Limp Bizkit no matter what their rotation was on MTV…when they played music, of course.

 

[Oofta]

Just you wait ... my brand is branching out..

Crystal Snarf.
Diet Snarf.
Snarf Zero.
Snarf Blak.
Snarf Life.
Zima.

As long as we don't have to put up with Black Cherry Snarf we should be okay. Some thing should just not be unleashed on the world again.

But thank goodness we got rid of the sweet "new" Snarf and back to the bitter old "Classic" Snarf. Now if we could just figure out how to get it in smaller portion sizes.

 

[Shardstone]

I liked this comment since it would appear that you might have read about the setting.

One thing that becomes hard to track is what influences other memories have on the setting materials. For some like me, things we read and experienced include a little dragon magazine, material from modules and so on—-the campaign material alone is pretty bare bones.

And the old art probably got linked in the eyes of fans even if peripherally related. It forms a zeitgeist. I think of cloaks and kilts in grey hawk and cravats and frilly sleeves in the realms.

I can say that not every corner being filled in is a draw. There are effective hints of ominous things. There is mystery—-I know enough about tharizdun to be interested and wary but not enough to be too familiar and habituated.

Less is not a feel though or aesthetic in itself! But I get a more medieval vs Renaissance feel from grey hawk. It feels more 1300s to me and leas 1450-1500. And some acid trip mixed in…

Things don’t fit together too conveniently. Yes there are some good orders but there aren’t harpers on every corner. (Thank pelor!). The materials suggest less omniscient players in the world. There are secrets and a lot of things stay secret.

I like the naming better for people and places—-as absurd some of their origins are. The deities? Wee Jas, Hextor and Pelor? Yeah. I like them better personally. How is the feel different. Hard to explain.

Some of it is admittedly hard to pin down. But I would say this: I don’t buy the criticism that it’s been done by realms. Why bother?

For me it’s like saying Nu Metal did power chords and wall of sound…Why listen to Black Sabbath?! Let me count the reasons. And watch me struggle to explain them.

Yeah it’s more blues infused. No? Not enough? It’s darker. New music uses minor chords too? It’s got a dark syrupy fuzzed out sound that hints at something dark.

Yeah well I never listened to it much, why would I? Yes, it’s hard to draw short pithy lines of distinctions but it’s different. I swear.

I would say the real question here is would it have an audience. I don’t know. When I saw Black Sabbath in concert in the 90s, there were a lot of younger people going nuts for them (self included!).

Would it sell like some of the more familiar stuff? That’s the rub and that’s the question. People know and lap up the realms…it’s had a lot more love and familiarity breeds liking.

But for me Black Sabbath is no Limp Bizkit no matter what their rotation was on MTV…when they played music, of course.

Your question of, will it have an audience, is my exact question.

I am not questioning why someone would play Greyhawk, or ultimately choose to play it. I'm questioning, could Black Sabbath make another album (assuming all are alive and well) and have it be popular today without updating/innovating/changing their sound to incorporate new ideas? It could probably sell to a niche market, but if there isn't any progression from the 70s to the modern day, I don't think the album would be nearly as big of a hit.

I want Greyhawk to be a big hit if/when it is originally redone. The love for this setting a lot of people have that grew up with early D&D I think speaks enough to having the setting done. I just personally think that unless Greyhawk is really taken and experimented with and innovated upon, it wouldn't have much of a market if sold right now.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

. Now if we could just figure out how to get it in smaller portion sizes.

Smaller portions? Never!

Because then we would deny ourselves the pleasure of seeing people keep saying, 200 posts in, that they want a new Greyhawk as
If it’s some great original thought.

The first requirement I listed in the OP for a Greyhawk reboot-

This should be obvious, but the past has to remain in the past. I would like a return to the 576 CY timeline (partly for the next reason) but I don't need it. What I want more than anything is an interesting quality setting THAT ATTRACTS NEW FANS. You can always get a reprint of the old stuff if you want- I want a new generation to have their own Greyhawk.

I guess the problem with big portions is no one finishes the meal!

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Your question of, will it have an audience, is my exact question.

I am not questioning why someone would play Greyhawk, or ultimately choose to play it. I'm questioning, could Black Sabbath make another album (assuming all are alive and well) and have it be popular today without updating/innovating/changing their sound to incorporate new ideas? It could probably sell to a niche market, but if there isn't any progression from the 70s to the modern day, I don't think the album would be nearly as big of a hit.

I want Greyhawk to be a big hit if/when it is originally redone. The love for this setting a lot of people have that grew up with early D&D I think speaks enough to having the setting done. I just personally think that unless Greyhawk is really taken and experimented with and innovated upon, it wouldn't have much of a market if sold right now.

Yes it’s a question. But not many years back Sabbath put out ‘13’ and it was good.

But point taken, it was a better recording and they were new songs.

It really depends what WOTC wants to do. There are some of us that would buy this in lieu of…anything.

More directly, Coca Cola produces Minute Maid orange. Coca Cola sells much much more than orange.

Similarly, I don’t think this is an either or proposition…

Or at least I hope not.

 

[Mercurius]

@Snarf Zagyg , there is a certain contradiction in your wish for a new version of Greyhawk that appeals to new folks, yet also an insistence on the Darlene map. I mean, I love the Darlene map (or rather, the tattered remnants of it that I still own), but it is a bit old school and I'm not sure the aesthetic would be appealing to a majority of newbies.

And this general principle holds for GH as a whole. GH was a product of its time, and a lot of its charm is derived from that - including our nostalgia for the first decade or so of D&D. To add too many bells and whistles, well, it becomes something else.

This is why I said upthread, either double-down on Greyhawk Classic or you just create a new setting. If you try to do too much of both--combining classic and "what the kids want"--well, you end up with the 4E Forgotten Realms.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@Snarf Zagyg , there is a certain contradiction in your wish for a new version of Greyhawk that appeals to new folks, yet also an insistence on the Darlene map. I mean, I love the Darlene map (or rather, the tattered remnants of it that I still own), but it is a bit old school and I'm not sure the aesthetic would be appealing to a majority of newbies.

I will add emphasis to what I wrote-

One of the things that was so magical about the original setting was the Darlene Map. I can't think of a better way to continue to honor a pioneer within the industry than by having that map released again with the setting (I guess they have those slip thingies instead of boxed sets now?). It's truly one of the great and seminal maps in this hobby. Now, I know that the Anna Meyer maps are amazing as well, and I agree with Hussar that they would also make an excellent addition ... but I'd like to give Darlene some props.

To the extent I was not being perfectly clear, given the focus we have on people like Gygax and Arneson, I think it would be great to use the 50th to honor Darlene- one of the early and influential female contributors to D&D- by including her map, which remains an influential piece of art.

It's certainly not something I'd ever insist on, but that's the type of fan service that I think people should get behind.

 

[James Gasik]

It's interesting that the people who keep arguing that there should be no Greyhawk are those that are heavily invested in the idea that (1) other people should not be allowed to have what they want, and (2) the pushback would actually be from fans of the setting, as opposed to the continued drumbeat of, "Fans of Greyhawk can't have Greyhawk because I, someone who doesn't like Greyhawk, keep saying that all true fans of Greyhawk don't want it!"

It's especially weird in a thread that explicitly states that a primary purpose of a rebooted Greyhawk is to attract new fans.

I mean, I suppose people could show up to threads about Nentir Vale, or Dark Sun, and start caterwauling about how no true fan of those settings would actually want it to be rebooted. But that would be rude, and unlikely to be a productive use of anyone's time.

This reminds me of the Psionics thread from a few months ago, where you had people going "Psionics are terrible and WotC shouldn't waste their time on more than what they've already done, so they can instead make good content (ie, the stuff I want)."