D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

I just see fudging as fundamentally refusing to play fair.
fair is not determined by 1 person for all internet it is determined by the table... if the table excepts it then who decides what is and isn't fair play
The numbers are meaningless, the rules are meaningless. Nothing I as a player choose or attempt truly has any weight.
I call bull on 1 or 2 manipulations (ESPECIALLY TO MAKE IT MORE FUN) take away every meaning from every choice
My tactics and strategies always and eternally have the giant asterisk of "assuming the DM actually plays by the rules."
i mean every game has that.
That's why I cannot accept any form of fudging. If it's secret, it's unacceptable. If it isn't secret, as in, if the players can actually find out in the moment that it is changing and either respond immediately or learn how to respond in the future, then it's not fudging, and I have no problem with it.
i mean we talk as a table about what we want campagin to campaign.... right now I am running a RL curse of strahd 100% dice fall where they may, and a home brew campagin where we are forcing the game to be fun even if fudging... including (we use roll20 so it is open dice rolls) me taking a crit and turning it to a normla hit 3 times this year.
I expect every DM to play fair.
so do I.... I just think making the game more fun is fair. making the game harder or doing player v dm bs is not fair...
 

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Hussar

Legend
/snip. Are spells rules, are feats rules, are class and race writeups rules? o_O

Yes, yes, maybe, very maybe.

After all, classes get modified all the time. Sure classes have lots of associated rules, but there’s all sorts of fuzzy stuff too. And the race writeups are largely up for grabs.

I’ve got a Dragonborn pc in my group right now that is from the Faewild. That’s not kosher per the phb. Is that against the rules or not?
 

Irlo

Hero
I think it is pretty normal to say 'rules for monsters' and things like that. And it is really weird for me to see people arguing that these things are not rules. Are spells rules, are feats rules, are class and race writeups rules? o_O
If someone asked me, "Which book has the rules for beholders?" of course I would point them to the MM, because in casual conversation I know what they mean. They're looking for the stat block, not asking me to philosophize on the question, "What is a rule?" The more natural question (in my experience, and in my circles) would be, "Which book are beholders in?"

If someone asked me, "Is it a rule that goblins wear leather armor and wield shields?" I would answer, "No." It's part of a monster stat block in the MM, but it's not a rule in the normal use of the word when asking that question. It doesn't take a house rule to present the players with an unarmored goblin. If stat blocks are considered rules in some sense, surely they're rules in a different sense than, say, the rule that PCs can only use one bonus action per turn.

In the context of a conversation in which some have said that a DM improvising monster's actions outside of the limits of a pre-established stat block is cheating (as has been said in this thread), it might be worthwhile to establish the semantic difference among various uses of the term rules.

And in the context of a conversation in which someone asked, "What is a rule?" (as has been asked in this thread), then it's certainly worthwhile to do so, if one wants to participate in that conversation.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I don't really see that my analogy, comparing a stat block to a character sheet, is flawed, nor would anyone say a character sheet is a rule. Rules are used to create both.

The issue is, we can point to all the rules used to create a character. We can't point to all the rules used to create a monster stat block. We know some, and must infer the rest.

Again, the monster manual does contain rules, but I think it's fair to say it's less of a rulebook than, say, the Player's Handbook, and more like The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, which is a resource primarily, but does contain some rules.

I appreciate that people have a different point of view here, we've all thought of monster books as rulebooks for a very long time, myself included. All I'm saying is, it's obvious a book full of monster stat blocks is a very different kind of book than the PHB and DMG.

I mean, if we had a book of sample character sheets, would we call that a rulebook, a resource, or a supplement?
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
The rules for monsters are on the first few pages of the MM.
And some are in the PHB and DMG I am sure.

But stat blocks are no rules. They are as much rules as your specific character is. Those blocks are results of applying rules. And none of them are fixed. Oterwise your elven character is against the rules, because you have abilities that your MM elf does not have.
Or an Orc who misses an arm and can't use tge great axe and now attack only with a hand axe. All against the rules?

But to be fair, some of the stat blocs contain unique mechanics, which I do think are a very, narrow specific kind of rule.

But otherwise I agree.
 


I'm afraid Mr. Nelson has not made quite the point he thinks he has made. He is (rather flagrantly) abusing equivocation, hinging on the ambiguity between two senses of "bad" or "undesirable" design. This argument is at high risk of becoming a motte-and-bailey fallacy if not scrupulously addressed; I mention this only to cut off such responses at the pass, so to speak.

The first sense of "bad" or "undesirable" design is "design which is not strictly favorable to the player and which may create an environment of hardship or a perceived or real bias against the player." This is "bad" design only in the sense that it is design which intentionally creates hurdles to be overcome. But since the whole point of gaming is to do something (getting back to my four part typology of game-purposes!), intentionally creating good hurdles, hurdles that are interesting and compelling and fun etc., etc., is in fact exactly what I would call GOOD game design. Designing such hurdles so they are neither too high nor too low, neither too close together nor too far apart, etc. but rather sitting in the context specific Goldilocks zone, that's difficult, and we recognize when a game has achieved this. (For example, Hades received massive, and well-deserved, praise for making it so death is actually interesting and even rewarding, such that even someone like me who HATES most roguelikes and roguelites thought it was an absolute blast.)

The second sense of "bad" design is exactly what it says on the tin. Such things are often called "clunky" or "janky." They either don't work right, or require unintuitive and cumbersome actions for minimal benefit, or mess up through no fault of the player, or otherwise break down in some way. This kind of "bad" design is undesirable because it detracts from the gaming experience without adding anything in return. It absolutely should be avoided, and there really is no excusing it.

Mr. Nelson, possibly without realizing it, wants us to accept the former as "bad" design, so that we will embrace usage of the latter. This does not logically follow; if condensed into an actual logic argument it becomes a fallacy of four terms, which is an actual formal fallacy rather than the informal fallacy of equivocation. E.g.:
To fulfill the purpose of making a game is to give a good game experience.
"Bad" (read: intentionally difficult) design is sometimes necessary for making a good game experience.
Therefore, "bad" (read: clunky/janky/nonfunctional) design is sometimes necessary for fulfilling the purpose of making a game.

This is a formal fallacy because the argument as presented is flawed due to its structure alone, rather than its content. It is called the "fallacy of four terms" because the syllogism does not actually connect the 2nd term ("bad" design as intentional difficulty) with the 4th term ("bad" design as clunky/janky/nonfunctional), when normally those two things would in fact be the same term. If we use more specific phrasing the failure to connect the premise to the conclusion becomes clear:
To fulfill the purpose of making a game is to give a good game experience.
Intentionally difficult design may be necessary to give a good game experience.
Therefore, clunky, janky, or nonfunctional design may be necessary to deliver a good game experience.

Now, the fact that I have pointed out a fallacious argument does not, in itself, refute the key point being made. It might be the case that clunky, janky, nonfunctional design could be necessary to produce good game experiences for some other reason. However, in this case, I think it is rather clear that "intentionally difficult" is fine while "intentionally broken" is not fine. Broken things are, in general, almost always more difficult to work with. That does not mean they are somehow a better choice than non-broken things which achieve the same ends.

To give examples specific to Mr. Nelson's responses: having a trade market that can shift on a dime and sometimes "cheat" you out of a good deal is not clunky or janky design, it is in fact functioning, and in so doing it represents a real danger that high-risk trading folks encounter on the regular. Capturing that frustration for the player some of the time is, in fact, desirable. But if it's happening every other trade, that would not be desirable. It should occur often enough to be a real risk, but rarely enough that most people only see it a few times a session or the like.

Conversely, the example that the player is beholden to the requests of literally all clients, even if those clients are scammers or the like...no, that does not strike me as intentional difficulty. It strikes me as forcing players to do self-harming things solely because the game doesn't let you choose otherwise. That is clunky at best, and does not actually represent the fiction of being a trader in a high risk exchange market: no trade market has ever been set up where you HAVE to accept ALL requests no matter who or what they might be. That would be a massively abusable system and would essentially guarantee no one would willingly trade on that exchange.

Intentionally difficult design can be good when used judiciously, as shown by the outstanding success of Elden Ring. Intentionally broken design is not good, and should be avoided.
Let me guess; you'll also against race as class, material components, stat differences by sex, gold for exp, and weapon speeds???
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Let me guess; you'll also against race as class, material components, stat differences by sex, gold for exp, and weapon speeds???
In order:
  1. It's very much not my preference. I've seen applications of it that have been done passably well, but overall I find it inhibits creative freedom too much and has...uncomfortable secondary implications. There's a reason you saw the game move away from that even back in 2e.
  2. Ironically, I actually like the idea of material components in theory, but find their application in practice to usually be...really bad. There's some interesting possibilities with some of the "metamagic components," where components don't permit spells, they rather enhance them, but it would need more work to be an actually interesting system as opposed to just a raw power-up.
  3. Absolutely opposed to those, yes. The only places where differences between sexes matters is at the absolute top of the top tier, stuff straining against world records and the like, and that's not a distinction D&D has ever been particularly interested in making.
  4. I have no real opinion either way. XP=GP is a valid approach, so long as you understand what it's for; it's not an approach ideal for my tastes, but there are some very clever design things you can do with it that can make for very good game design. (For example: heavy armor is an XP penalty for increased survivability!)
  5. Yeah...I've frankly never understood the actual value derived from weapon speeds. They're a huge fiddly pile of...not much going on.
So....rather a mixed bag? You may be being facetious here (I'm not sure either way), so perhaps it was all meant to be a string of "yes I'm against this." I'm overall more critical than favorable to all elements on the list, but I wish there were cool systems using material components for spells, and even if it's not really my bag I can see how XP=GP has fun game-worthy potential.
 

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