D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

[Grendel_Khan]

You're right, of course. It is possible. But never underestimate how many 5e players have no interest in learning any other system. There is a gulf between 5e fans and RPG fans.

Yeah but that still doesn't explain why you'd need to compromise your interests. Unless you're trying to run five games a week or drum up support for a game store, just run the thing you actually want to run.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah but that still doesn't explain why you'd need to compromise your interests. Unless you're trying to run five games a week or drum up support for a game store, just run the thing you actually want to run.

Network effects are real. Part of D&D's dominance in the market is due to this. The current version of the biggest game has vastly greater availability of players and GMs in most locales.

That being said, players of other games DO exist, and online play has definitely opened up more availability for these players to connect.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Network effects are real. Part of D&D's dominance in the market is due to this. The current version of the biggest game has vastly greater availability of players and GMs in most locales.

That being said, players of other games DO exist, and online play has definitely opened up more availability for these players to connect.

Right, and I could talk all day about the ripple effect of D&D's dominance (no stores within an hour drive of me carry anything else) but I'm not talking broadly here. Being unable to find and maintain a stable group seems like an issue that's bigger than 5e. Is it about unwillingness to play online? I know if I refused to do anything but in-person I'd have zero people to play with. And if someone dislikes playing 5e remote, have they tried another type of game via VTT, maybe one with fewer calculations and need for precise battlemaps?

 

[Baron Opal II]

1. I want sufficient simulation that I can use my own experiences to understand my character's capabilities.
2. As far as armed giants go, we are playing a fantasy game where we attempt deeds of renown without peer. It is appropriate that fantastical elements introduce themselves and are handled appropriately.

It would seem that you both want to judge your character's capabilities based on your real world experience, while explicitly saying their capacities let them accomplish fantasy games deeds of renown without peer.

Yes, a certain level of simulation as a baseline. If my character perceives someone jumping 30-40 ft., that's a clue that magic, wuxia training, or something else exceptional is involved. It isn't either / or, it is a spectrum. There is no conflict here, and I'm honestly puzzled by your inability to comprehend this.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yes, a certain level of simulation as a baseline. If my character perceives someone jumping 30-40 ft., that's a clue that magic, wuxia training, or something else exceptional is involved. It isn't either / or, it is a spectrum. There is no conflict here, and I'm honestly puzzled by your inability to comprehend this.

I think it's more that this same thinking evaporates when the character that is limited to normal, even if exceptional, human limits then goes toe to toe with an ogre and isn't pulped by pure physical realities, much less a dragon. There's this "if not facing a monster, you're limited to human range only, but if facing a monster, then you can do superhuman things." Usually this is dealt with by not acknowledging this and switching it off to deal with the game rules and then considering it okay so long as the game rules are consistent. It's a switch from real life human constraints to genre constraints at arbitrary points.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I think it's more that this same thinking evaporates when the character that is limited to normal, even if exceptional, human limits then goes toe to toe with an ogre and isn't pulped by pure physical realities, much less a dragon. There's this "if not facing a monster, you're limited to human range only, but if facing a monster, then you can do superhuman things." Usually this is dealt with by not acknowledging this and switching it off to deal with the game rules and then considering it okay so long as the game rules are consistent. It's a switch from real life human constraints to genre constraints at arbitrary points.

Well, yes. It's a spectrum.

Once you reach third to fifth level you pass what I would consider to be mortal limits. While someone in plate and shield could survive being hit with a sledgehammer by someone of great strength, after a point it doesn't matter how much the force is distributed after the third or fourth strike.

When push comes to shove, we're playing a game. I feel there should be enough realism, simulation, whatever so that if I'm operating within realistic bounds I can appropriately extrapolate consequences of my actions. If I fall off a cliff I'm going to die. However, once I have made a pact with the sylphs of the Grey Mountains, I can cast feather fall and I'll be okay. I really don't see this stance as some sort of heresy that Blue, Hussar, and others seem to.

I think the kind of "simulation" the OP is talking about is the kind we see in fiction- the world generally works like the real world where not otherwise specified.

Or, in other words, this.

 

[Mannahnin]

I think it's more that this same thinking evaporates when the character that is limited to normal, even if exceptional, human limits then goes toe to toe with an ogre and isn't pulped by pure physical realities, much less a dragon. There's this "if not facing a monster, you're limited to human range only, but if facing a monster, then you can do superhuman things." Usually this is dealt with by not acknowledging this and switching it off to deal with the game rules and then considering it okay so long as the game rules are consistent. It's a switch from real life human constraints to genre constraints at arbitrary points.

Which could potentially be fodder for interesting discussion.

Is it possible for folks (either all players of a given game, or just all players at a given table) to communicate about and be on the same page about where quasi-reality ends and fantasy logic begins? At least well enough that players can make good, informed decisions?

Or is it just something, at least in D&D, where the players are always going to have to double-check where "reality" ends/begins in the DM's conception?

It may just be the latter, given how all our Invisible Rulebooks about reality differ.

Once you reach third to fifth level you pass what I would consider to be mortal limits. While someone in plate and shield could survive being hit with a sledgehammer by someone of great strength, after a point it doesn't matter how much the force is distributed after the third or fourth strike.

When you're running a game, do you talk about this boundary/dividing line with your players? Either in a session zero or a written packet or something, along with house rules and world info?

 

[Baron Opal II]

When you're running a game, do you talk about this boundary/dividing line with your players? Either in a session zero or a written packet or something, along with house rules and world info?

No, it's implicit in the rules. Large creatures gain bonuses to hp and damage, PCs gain further capabilities with higher level and need to use cunning and tactics to shift the odds in their favor.

Oh, wait, you mean what happens getting hit by Andre the Giant's sledge? I was referencing what I would expect would happen in reality.

 

[Mannahnin]

No, it's implicit in the rules. Large creatures gain bonuses to hp and damage, PCs gain further capabilities with higher level and need to use cunning and tactics to shift the odds in their favor.

Oh, wait, you mean what happens getting hit by Andre the Giant's sledge? I was referencing what I would expect would happen in reality.

Right, but like, how do your players know that 3rd to 5th level is where they go superhuman, and before that they should expect to be bounded by what we'd expect humans to be able to do IRL?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Well, yes. It's a spectrum.

Once you reach third to fifth level you pass what I would consider to be mortal limits. While someone in plate and shield could survive being hit with a sledgehammer by someone of great strength, after a point it doesn't matter how much the force is distributed after the third or fourth strike.

When push comes to shove, we're playing a game. I feel there should be enough realism, simulation, whatever so that if I'm operating within realistic bounds I can appropriately extrapolate consequences of my actions. If I fall off a cliff I'm going to die. However, once I have made a pact with the sylphs of the Grey Mountains, I can cast feather fall and I'll be okay. I really don't see this stance as some sort of heresy that Blue, Hussar, and others seem to.


Or, in other words, this.

It's not a spectrum in 5e at all. How far you can jump or hold your breath stays locked into how the rules have chosen to model 'normal human capabilities.' A real spectrum over levels would have tier 1 maybe locked into human norms, tier 2 moving past that a bit, tier 3 dealing with Beowulf level capabilities, and tier 4 being effectively unbounded. But, we still keep the PCs locked into modeled human norms for non-monster interactions (and not magic, which is the get-out-of-simulation-free card of all D&D).

A 1st level fighter has a chance to fight and defeat an ogre (not great, but not vanishing, either). In reality, a human being hit by something that is twice their size (and quadruple their weight) would be a broken pulp. Trying to turn that club on a shield would break bones. And Ogres aren't modeled as slow and lumbering, but pretty human normal for speed and dexterity. However, they get modeled with ridiculously low strength for the physical descriptions -- another bad modelling attempt to even basically capture reality. And, there's no change in description for this same fighter at 10th level -- provided they haven't increased their STR, they jump as far. Provided they haven't increased their CON, they hold their breath as long. They climb and run as fast. They fatigue from marching or chasing only slightly less slowly (10%). If they are increasing their stats, then they can be stronger than the ogre, which makes zero physical sense. So, no, there's a hard toggle here, not a spectrum, and not one that really ever changes as levels increase.