D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is not much point is losing sleep about how words come to be used and no "we" can convince to go back, so we literally* have to accept that and in arguments where precision matters acknowledge those different uses.

That said, I see no problem with the use of simulate and simulation as I did in my post. Just like I think a style of D&D can be "simulationist" (leaning towards simulating an understanding of a fantastic reality) without actually needing to be a simulation of anything actual or anything in total.



*The literal final nail in that coffin for me, and by "literal" I, of course, mean figurative.

Right, I'm not even a terminology snob in most senses. I think people mostly use words in a sense that is approximate and contextual. We should take it how we find it and nit picking the exact words is GENERALLY something I despise in real life situations. I'd do the same here, but I think it does lead to less useful discussions in the case of some specific words, like 'simulation'. There, I've put the figuratively literal last nail in it for you

 

[Ovinomancer]

Literally no.one likes the argument, "Why don't you just play another game?". It is not helpful, and can easily be turned around.

Well, that can't be right. I like that argument. If I'm trying to get a game to do something and having trouble with it, I welcome suggestions of other games that do that thing better. I know other people like that, too. So, no, not literally no one.

It's fine if you have reasons to stick to D&D even if it isn't serving you well. But maybe express those instead of assuming you know what everyone likes.

If we're to have a discussion, it might be novel for you to actually engage my points instead of these last replies essentially trying to slander my person. I know, message board and all.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Literally no.one likes the argument, "Why don't you just play another game?". It is not helpful, and can easily be turned around.

I dunno, man, while I understand the kind of extenuating circumstances that can make it a non-starter, I very much think that at some point when one is complaining enough about how poor that wrench is at hammering nails, that's a legitimate response. The fact it can be turned around is, if anything, a virtue of it.

The fact that D&D is the game at hand complicates issues because of social factors, but its still never going to be the all purpose power tool no matter how much one might want it to be; by the time its serving some purposes even halfway well its not serving others at all, and to ignore that is to live in denial.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Glaurung wasn't a winged dragon. It couldn't fly.

I'm not sure Tolkien really established that. Clearly there were flying dragons (IE Smaug). It is unclear about Glaurung as far as I can tell. Later he shows up and Turin kills him, but it isn't really clear how he gets there (although I haven't read that stuff in quite a few years). Anyway, perhaps Glaurung is being 'depowered' here too! Nor would we consider these Kazad to be exactly ordinary mortals, the people of 1st Age Beleriand all seem to be pretty darn bad-assed! We don't really get to see if that extends to things like athletic feats or not, it just doesn't come up (though in a few places the Edain do some fairly crazy stuff).

 

[Thomas Shey]

One thing I'm curious about regarding the preference for "simulationist" play is how much those who value it feel they are actually achieving "realistic" results, and how much of it is based on wanting to avoid "absurdities".

Well, the more you tend to know about the subject, the less different these questions are.

IME on this board, this almost always comes up in the context of an isolated instances of circumstances someone feels is ridiculous

Climbing centaurs
Gnolls v. Halflings
Barbarian casts "fall off cliff"

I've yet to see this approach presented as a "fully modeled authentic fantasy medieval society based on D&D rules" or anything. Perhaps it's confirmation bias.

Again, I suspect most of the time people simply don't know enough for absurdities in some areas to be obvious to them. And of course there's how much you'll let low probability but possible events be more probable than they should be, too.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So then are you agreeing with my assessment that you mean when a game has mechanics for X, then it is simulating X?

Does it matter exactly how those mechanics go about it? Does the absence of mechanics for X in some way make a game incapable of simulating X?

Well, I'll certainly step in and argue that if a game has no mechanics related to X the game is incapable of simulating it; that does not mean the GM and other players cannot do so, whether by house rules, ad hoc rules, or simply defining results. But I wouldn't say those are the same statement.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You did say that's not helpful, but you didn't offer a reason. If I was complaining about a system as regularly as you do on these boards about 5e, and people suggested ones that seemed more like what I was interested in, I wouldn't act wounded and appalled. There are other games, there are other players. I honestly don't get being stuck with a system because you have players who don't trust you enough to try something else. That's a genuinely bad situation!

EDIT: Fixed a minor typo

As I've commented elsewhere, people with different experiences can vastly overestimate how practical it is to get players for anything outside the D&D sphere in some cases, usually because your available player-sets and their preferences are immovable.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have those debates, and look at old articles, and research the best ways for me to handle those issues, and I incorporate them into my game. I still use 5e as the base because that's what my players like and understand, so obviously compromises have to be made. That the main reason I love Level Up. It has a lot of what I want, on a 5e base.

Yeah, I'm just reminded of the 'Eladrin Fey Step Thread' that graced these pages back around 2009-ish. In this masterpiece of anti-4e rhetoric we learned exactly how terrible the Fey Step ability of Eladrin actually is and how it heretically destroys ANY HOPE of having a good game of D&D! I mean, the horror, everything about the precious D&D medievalesque world must be tossed in the garbage can because an Eladrin can simply teleport 25' every 10 minutes or so, potentially. (Eladrin, basically a high elf, they can do a LOS 25' teleport once per encounter). It isn't even clear that all normal NPCs of this race (assuming such even exist) are capable of this, but all PCs and monster versions can. But by gosh it utterly ruins D&D! Every town is now COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC because some magical elf guy could probably get into towns and castles without using the gate. I mean, it was pretty laughable of course, but my point is more that the compromises quickly become far too onerous and pointless to really bother with.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Maybe take some time later and read through it carefully. I've been led to understand that there's not much time on breaks to really get into things.

Quite true! Lunch time! Hopefully this clarifies my position better as well as upping my blood sugar a touch.
sigh... more salad...

Right, but like, how do your players know that 3rd to 5th level is where they go superhuman, and before that they should expect to be bounded by what we'd expect humans to be able to do IRL?

It's not a spectrum in 5e at all.

Really? How far can a level 20 fighter with a 20 STR jump?

Well, at first I thought "a heck of a lot farther than a first level fighter with a 14 strength." However, you're comparing a change in proficiency bonus from +2 to +6 and strength bonus from +2 to +5. A change from +4 to +11 seems like a lot. Even with an average roll, however, that's only a "hard" result at +11. I wasn't able to find any documentation on-line what that would correspond to. Regardless, I would expect a 20th level fighter to be able to leap 30 ft either through magic item, pact with a spirit, training from a movement master, or singular brawn.

This is why I initially mentioned "it's implicit in the rules" to Mannahnin. It seems it isn't as implicit as I expected. When you reach 5th or so, fighters gain an extra attack, magicians can fly, monks get stunning strike, &c. Not only new abilities, but their hit points have also reached a point where they can take a hit from a monstrous foe that would crush a peasant or first level character. This is further demonstration that the characters have gained in puissance and potency that allows them to counter such foes.

This is why I keep mentioning that the simulation is on a spectrum. At first level, you're just a dude. Perhaps trained or exceptional, but you die like the rest. 20th level? You are emulating Arjuna or Beowulf, Minamoto no Yoshitsune or Queen Zenobia. There's still some simulation here- gravity still exists, seasons still change. But, if we've established that you can throw a spear a league and ride it to your destination a cliff isn't much of an obstacle. We're playing D&D, here. As you increase in level you gain further exceptions to the real world based, faux-Rennasance reality we emulate in the game.

1) D&D Fighter closes to melee with the dragon (a prerequisite to deploy their atttacks).

2) D&D Fighter deploys their attack(s).

3) D&D Dragon deploys their melee suite of attacks onto D&D Fighter.

4) D&D Fighter somehow survives.

5) Rinse and repeat until D&D Fighter somehow slays the D&D dragon.

... what is happening in the shared imagined space to make this true if not D&D Epic Fighter's athletic profile reveals supernatural explosivity (omnidirectional speed, strength, agility), endurance, coordination, proprioception, and processing speed/efficiency?

Well, sure. Who is arguing otherwise?

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, I'm just reminded of the 'Eladrin Fey Step Thread' that graced these pages back around 2009-ish. In this masterpiece of anti-4e rhetoric we learned exactly how terrible the Fey Step ability of Eladrin actually is and how it heretically destroys ANY HOPE of having a good game of D&D! I mean, the horror, everything about the precious D&D medievalesque world must be tossed in the garbage can because an Eladrin can simply teleport 25' every 10 minutes or so, potentially. (Eladrin, basically a high elf, they can do a LOS 25' teleport once per encounter). It isn't even clear that all normal NPCs of this race (assuming such even exist) are capable of this, but all PCs and monster versions can. But by gosh it utterly ruins D&D! Every town is now COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC because some magical elf guy could probably get into towns and castles without using the gate. I mean, it was pretty laughable of course, but my point is more that the compromises quickly become far too onerous and pointless to really bother with.

For the life of me I can't figure out why we are re-fighting battles of Edition War II in this thread.