D&D 5E What is +1 Strength worth?

[Bill Zebub]

In the way that all streams and creeks eventually flow into a few big rivers, all D&D threads eventually become about realism or metagaming. Or both.

 

[NotAYakk]

Yep. This is why Battlemasters and Paladins (and other spellcasters) are often more effective than Champions. Over the course of a long adventuring day, the extra crit chance of the champion may mean that they technically deal more overall damage, but the ability to dump resources when and where you really need them is more valuable.

Champions are a bad example here.

The problem is that the "braindead" Battlemaster build (use dice only on crits, when missing by 1-3, or on a ripose/brace reaction) gives more overall damage in an adventuring day than the Champion gets, at least until high levels.

So comparing the Champion to the Battlemaster means that the BM both has the ability to focus its resources, it also has a higher baseline output.

Using some scripts to simulate it, a Braindead BM using 1 superiority die in an encounter (1/3 of its short rest resources) is better than the Champion, sometimes by a reasonably large margin (like, 1.5x as large as the difference between a Champion and a fighter-without-subclass). And if the BM uses 2 or 3 dice, the gap is even larger.

In order to make a Champion that matches the BM using only 1 die, I had to add to the Champion "when you use your second wind, you get a weapon attack, and you roll (fighter level/2) extra d10s". With that large of a buff, the simulated Champion matched a 1 SD Champion. It was still outpaced by a 2 or 3 SD Battlemaster.

(These simulations where done at level 5. Builds where not optimized; precision attack, for example, is much better with GWM/SS, but I didn't use it; in general, BM would gain more from optimization. I simulated 2 characters (with that build) against a number of ape monsters (4-10), and measured % chance of TPK/% chance of losing a PC. All monsters and PCs focus fired. Action surge/second wind being used was either used or not in various simulations. Number of apes was tweaked so that the baseline fighters wouldn't win 99.9% of the time.)

The conclusions of the Ape-brawl simulations matches DPR calculations of Champions vs Battlemasters.

Now, last time I did the math, by the time a Champion hits T4 and you equip them with synergistic gear (like a flametongue) the gap has closed.

So, a greatsword flametongue does 21 damage/hit.
+11 to hit. Foe with 21 AC means a swing is worth 12.25 damage.
A "boosted" attack does 16.15 damage per swing.

At level 20, the BM has 6d12 superiority dice. Converting to damage:
Use for damage on a crit. 13 damage per SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 1. 21 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 2. 19.25 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 3. 17.5 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 4. 15.75 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 5. 14 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 6. 12.25 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use with a reaction. Each SD does 16.15 damage ('boosted') - brace or riposte

Suppose you have 12 rounds of combat between short rests. Then if you burn more than 0.5 dice/round you'll run out.

If we use precision when we miss by up to 5, and on a crit, and get 1 reaction every 10 rounds (0.1 per round), this is 0.4 SD/round; with 2 action surges and 12 rounds of combat using 5.6 between short rests.

Damage per round is then boosted by an average of 6.6 per round by this "brain dead" use of SD.

The baseline fighter did 49 damage per round. So the BM was +13.5% damage over baseline. Over the 12 round short rest, the BM did 778 damage.

We then go to the champion. It adds 0.1 crits/attack, each crit does +14 damage on average, so +1.4 damage per attack. 4 attacks/round comes to +5.6 damage/round; an +11.5% damage over baseline. Over the 12 rounds between short rests, the Champion did 764 damage.

This gap is much closer than the same math at level 5, but still exists. It is only about 2%, which I'd consider not important.

The BM's ability to focus and optimize further is greater than the Champions ability to "last longer". The Champion does have another good feature (survivor) that the BM lacks on the other hand. And the +3 initiative bonus, other athletics bonuses, and the fighting style isn't nothing either.

At lower levels, where people are more likely to be playing, the gap is much larger. Hence my "you get an extra attack on a second wind"; this has a much larger impact in T1/T2 than in T4, as in T4 you already have 4 attacks/round; adding 1 isn't a huge swing. In T1, that extra attack is significant.

(Braindead comparison at level 5: Using a Longsword+Shield dueling style and 18 strength, the baseline is +7 to hit/1d8+6 damage. Against AC 15 that is 65% hit chance; baseline damage per action is 14.1. Champion adds 0.45 damage per action; 3% boost. BM die on crit is 9 damage, BM miss-by-1 is 10.5, miss-by-2 is 9.2. Doing both is 0.15 dice/attack for +1.435 damage/attack, so 0.3 dice/action and +2.87 damage/action; 20% boost. At 0.3 dice/action can last 13.3 actions between short rests; good endurance. Large, noticeable gap here. Over 12 rounds the baseline is 183, Champion is 189, BM is 220. If you add in a Second Wind attack to Champion and +2d10 healing, +7.05 damage and +11 healing, which closes more than half of gap with the BM if you value healing anywhere near damage.)

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Champions are a bad example here.

The problem is that the "braindead" Battlemaster build (use dice only on crits, when missing by 1-3, or on a ripose/brace reaction) gives more overall damage in an adventuring day than the Champion gets, at least until high levels.

So comparing the Champion to the Battlemaster means that the BM both has the ability to focus its resources, it also has a higher baseline output.

Using some scripts to simulate it, a Braindead BM using 1 superiority die in an encounter (1/3 of its short rest resources) is better than the Champion, sometimes by a reasonably large margin (like, 1.5x as large as the difference between a Champion and a fighter-without-subclass). And if the BM uses 2 or 3 dice, the gap is even larger.

In order to make a Champion that matches the BM using only 1 die, I had to add to the Champion "when you use your second wind, you get a weapon attack, and you roll (fighter level/2) extra d10s". With that large of a buff, the simulated Champion matched a 1 SD Champion. It was still outpaced by a 2 or 3 SD Battlemaster.

(These simulations where done at level 5. Builds where not optimized; precision attack, for example, is much better with GWM/SS, but I didn't use it; in general, BM would gain more from optimization. I simulated 2 characters (with that build) against a number of ape monsters (4-10), and measured % chance of TPK/% chance of losing a PC. All monsters and PCs focus fired. Action surge/second wind being used was either used or not in various simulations. Number of apes was tweaked so that the baseline fighters wouldn't win 99.9% of the time.)

The conclusions of the Ape-brawl simulations matches DPR calculations of Champions vs Battlemasters.

Now, last time I did the math, by the time a Champion hits T4 and you equip them with synergistic gear (like a flametongue) the gap has closed.

So, a greatsword flametongue does 21 damage/hit.
+11 to hit. Foe with 21 AC means a swing is worth 12.25 damage.
A "boosted" attack does 16.15 damage per swing.

At level 20, the BM has 6d12 superiority dice. Converting to damage:
Use for damage on a crit. 13 damage per SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 1. 21 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 2. 19.25 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 3. 17.5 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 4. 15.75 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 5. 14 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use when miss by 6. 12.25 damage/SD, 0.05 dice/attack
Use with a reaction. Each SD does 16.15 damage ('boosted') - brace or riposte

Suppose you have 12 rounds of combat between short rests. Then if you burn more than 0.5 dice/round you'll run out.

If we use precision when we miss by up to 5, and on a crit, and get 1 reaction every 10 rounds (0.1 per round), this is 0.4 SD/round; with 2 action surges and 12 rounds of combat using 5.6 between short rests.

Damage per round is then boosted by an average of 6.6 per round by this "brain dead" use of SD.

The baseline fighter did 49 damage per round. So the BM was +13.5% damage over baseline. Over the 12 round short rest, the BM did 778 damage.

We then go to the champion. It adds 0.1 crits/attack, each crit does +14 damage on average, so +1.4 damage per attack. 4 attacks/round comes to +5.6 damage/round; an +11.5% damage over baseline. Over the 12 rounds between short rests, the Champion did 764 damage.

This gap is much closer than the same math at level 5, but still exists. It is only about 2%, which I'd consider not important.

The BM's ability to focus and optimize further is greater than the Champions ability to "last longer". The Champion does have another good feature (survivor) that the BM lacks on the other hand. And the +3 initiative bonus, other athletics bonuses, and the fighting style isn't nothing either.

At lower levels, where people are more likely to be playing, the gap is much larger. Hence my "you get an extra attack on a second wind"; this has a much larger impact in T1/T2 than in T4, as in T4 you already have 4 attacks/round; adding 1 isn't a huge swing. In T1, that extra attack is significant.

(Braindead comparison at level 5: Using a Longsword+Shield dueling style and 18 strength, the baseline is +7 to hit/1d8+6 damage. Against AC 15 that is 65% hit chance; baseline damage per action is 14.1. Champion adds 0.45 damage per action; 3% boost. BM die on crit is 9 damage, BM miss-by-1 is 10.5, miss-by-2 is 9.2. Doing both is 0.15 dice/attack for +1.435 damage/attack, so 0.3 dice/action and +2.87 damage/action; 20% boost. At 0.3 dice/action can last 13.3 actions between short rests; good endurance. Large, noticeable gap here. Over 12 rounds the baseline is 183, Champion is 189, BM is 220. If you add in a Second Wind attack to Champion and +2d10 healing, +7.05 damage and +11 healing, which closes more than half of gap with the BM if you value healing anywhere near damage.)

Indeed. But even if the BM just uses SD as extra dice of damage, not the more advanced strategies of turning misses into hits, (and ignoring the actual tactical effects of the BM maneuvers) a low-level isn't far off a champion in damage. It is probably better in terms of effective damage, because the BM can choose where that damage goes rather than being random, and is much more engaging to play to boot.

 

[Matt89]

The answer to that question is 1 out of every 20 attacks. Combats in my experience typically last 3-5 rounds, so I've been calling them at 4 rounds. That's one miss turned into a hit every 5 combats until you reach extra attack. Then it's one miss turned into a hit every 2.5 combats. This is a really low amount of damage added. Then you have say 11 other hits that are all getting +1 damage, but those hits are also spread out over those combats, which also amounts to next to no extra damage per fight.

When you're in a fight with a group of PCs all doing damage against a group of enemies, that 2 extra damage a fight and one extra hit every 2.5 to 5 fights just isn't going to be noticeable.

Fights don't happen in aggregate, though. They happen individually. So yes, over 20 levels you are looking at hundreds of extra points of damage, and that was all in a fight or two the fighter would be kicking some serious ass. However, each individual fight isn't even going to notice the minute amounts of extra damage being inflicted. So while the aggregate damage over time and the percentage increase both seem very impressive, the reality is that the damage increase is trivial. It just doesn't affect things more than once in a blue moon.

Comparing strength 15 and 16 is one thing but 15-18 is something else. 10% more likely to hit and 2 extra damage. At level 10 (3 attacks a turn) in a 4 round combat you should get greater than 1 extra hit (on average), plus 2 extra damage on 6-8 other swings (depending on AC of the opponent's). You cannot get the benefit of +2 bonus to strength if you don't first take the benefit of +1 to strength

 

[Horwath]

Powering through a block. I wouldn't assume a monk's AC is all dodge and no block.

if they are attacking with very sharp blades, I do hope it's all dodge and no block.

 

[Maxperson]

Comparing strength 15 and 16 is one thing but 15-18 is something else. 10% more likely to hit and 2 extra damage. At level 10 (3 attacks a turn) in a 4 round combat you should get greater than 1 extra hit (on average), plus 2 extra damage on 6-8 other swings (depending on AC of the opponent's). You cannot get the benefit of +2 bonus to strength if you don't first take the benefit of +1 to strength

If D&D Beyond is to be believed 85% of games never reach level 11 to get 3 attacks, so I've been calculating at 1 attack or 2 attacks, and most games don't even go past level 5.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If D&D Beyond is to be believed 85% of games never reach level 11 to get 3 attacks, so I've been calculating at 1 attack or 2 attacks, and most games don't even go past level 5.

As often as I disagree with you, I think you hit th nail on your head with your analysis.

Same goes for evrey attack stat or combat feat. Can we blow up our damage by 20%? Probably. Can we do it so reliably that we can count on it? Quite a bit more difficult. Sharpshooter and GWM are designed to trade reliability for some extra damage. And until high level, where you have enough stat bonuses for both feats and astat increases, you trade even more reliability.

I have noticed, that the most impactful feat in our campaign was "actor" in combination with warlock at will disguise self invocation.
And this character replaced a dex 20, sharpshooter, level 8 eldritch knight.

 

[Maxperson]

As often as I disagree with you, I think you hit th nail on your head with your analysis.

Same goes for evrey attack stat or combat feat. Can we blow up our damage by 20%? Probably. Can we do it so reliably that we can count on it? Quite a bit more difficult. Sharpshooter and GWM are designed to trade reliability for some extra damage. And until high level, where you have enough stat bonuses for both feats and astat increases, you trade even more reliability.

I have noticed, that the most impactful feat in our campaign was "actor" in combination with warlock at will disguise self invocation.
And this character replaced a dex 20, sharpshooter, level 8 eldritch knight.

Plus feats are just much more interesting and fun than raising stats.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Same goes for every attack stat or combat feat. Can we blow up our damage by 20%? Probably. Can we do it so reliably that we can count on it? Quite a bit more difficult.

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the math here. (Or I'm misunderstanding your point.) The 20% is average. On any given turn you can't "count" on anything.

So, yeah, in any given combat there's a decent chance the +1 won't do anything.

In some combats it will mean 3 hits instead of 2 hits.

In even fewer combats it will mean 4 hits instead of 2 hits.

Overall it will average out to around 20-25% more damage (depending on what weapon you use, the AC of opponents, etc.). You can't rely on it in any given moment, any more than you can rely on ever getting a benefit from +1 Cha if you decide to put the point there instead. You might conceivably run an entire campaign and somehow never actually get to make a melee attack with your Str-based Fighter. But, statistically, +1 to your primary stat is stronger than almost any other choice you can make.

 

[Minigiant]

Yup. The +1 STR is small so you don't feel it.

However due to the lower smaller number stacking and reliance on multiple attacks, then +1 STR adds up to a lot.

It's like when you watch a game and it looks close. But when you watch the post-game show and see the stats and realize it was lopsided