D&D General Why Do People Hate Gnomes?

5. Shy reclusive forest-dweller with badger companion
6. Confident master of illusion magic
7. “wise woman” who receives information from all the smaller forest creatures
8. Careful, meticulous engineer or bridgemaker
5: everything after "shy reclusive" is not a personality, and "shy recluse" is nowhere near enough to call it a personality6
6: what is with all these "one personality trait and a profession" descriptions? Ditto the above just with "confident" and "master of illusion magic."
7: this is literally #1 with extra flavor
8: again...one personality trait + profession does not a personality make.

So, collecting together these and the foregoing four, trimmed down to actually distinct things, I see the following:

A: eccentric expert, with various specific physical quirks (age, build, dwelling-place) and usually one end of at least one of the following binaries: nature vs industry, meticulous vs reckless, gregarious vs shy, "science" (incl. alchemy) vs "magic." AKA, the pretty much standard gnome personality.
B: aloof observer, whose physical quickness apparently is a personality trait? I guess?
C: lecher (because that's a lovely option...)

I hope you can see why I don't consider B and C actually full-fledged personalities, and in particular don't care for the notion that being a sexual harasser is an archetypal gnome personality!
 

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I don't know what to tell you. You seem pretty human to me :p
when even the other non-neurotypical peers think you are inhuman, one tends to start disbelieving such statements.
Every option has its defenders. Kobolds, for example, are quite popular and fill a similar role, due to their reputation as sort of Starscream-adjacent dragon servitors/slaves. That it has defenders is not really a reason to include or exclude something from the initial books.

(As an aside, in 4e, ALL books were core, there was no distinction between books in that sense, so 4e gnomes WERE core. They just didn't come out until the second book. Notably, neither did Druid, Barbarian, Bard, Sorcerer, and a handful of other classic options. So it's not like they were relegated to the book equivalent of Siberia. They just didn't get included in the very first book. People took that as a rallying cry against it, not because they actually cared, but because it was a convenient canard...as was pretty typical of the responses to 4e at launch.)

Dragonborn, by comparison, are by far one of the most popular non-human options in 5e, and their popularity has done nothing but grow since 5e launched. Excluding humans (which are always the most popular race by a wide margin), dragonborn are either 3rd or 4th, depending on whether tieflings have overtaken them again (lumping together all subraces): the nonhuman popularity list is always elf, half-elf, dragonborn, tiefling. Sometimes elf and half-elf swap, and earlier in 5e's life dragonborn were less popular than tieflings. But in general those four have always been very popular and dragonborn specifically have repeatedly grown in popularity.

Popularity is one factor in deciding how important it is to include an option in a publication. They cannot include everything. Would kobolds or goblins be more effective than gnomes as a PHB option? Pathfinder has made their goblins an iconic thing (though I have my issues with that portrayal as well.) It certainly isn't the only factor (otherwise, based on one of the polls they conducted during the Next playtest, we would have gotten a Warlord in 5e and Druid would have been folded into Cleric!) But it is a major factor.

Would the loss of a comparatively small number of gnome fans be mitigated by the gain of, say, a contingent of kobold fans? That's exactly what "man on the street" answers help designers to determine.


As others have said, 1 and 3 are the same character, just one is old and the other is not; I don't consider age alone to be a personality difference. (Plus, "tinker" is not a personality, it is a hobby or a profession, depending on how strict you define it.) 2 is not even a personality in the first place. "Caliban" is a proper noun, being a specific character, so I'm not sure what you mean by it here, nor do I see anything that really relates to being a gnome in this, as opposed to 1-and-3 which is at least drawing on both classic and recent gnome tropes and ideas (Tolkien's Noldor were similarly "tinker"-y/interested in how things are made, and as others have said we're straight up called "gnomes" at one point.)

So...one and a half personalities is not really doing you much here.


1. How was that communicated from what was written? I didn't get even a hint of alchemist, let alone illusionist. Someone is an elder by being old. That's the only qualification you need to be an elder.
2. I'm sorry, but no, none of those are personalities, nor do they collectively constitute one. Quickness is a physical trait, as is stealth. Watcher is a profession (e.g. guard) or a hobby (e.g. birdwatching), and "watchful" is a single character trait. You might as well call "angry" a personality, it would be just as descriptive, aka not really descriptive at all. You have described a character in terms of two physical attributes and one personality trait. That's...just not enough to be a personality, nowhere near something like "eccentric absentminded elder," where all three (even the third, despite not being a personality trait) tell us a great deal about the values and mannerisms of the character.
3. Then it's...not a distinct option. At best you've given three, not four. (And, as stated, I think you don't even have that many.)
4. That's not a rebuttal. If anything, it's an admission that the archetypes of gnome and goblin are so similar, it's difficult to distinguish them, which is a strange thing for you to admit, given you seem to be arguing against that point elsewhere.
I would argue i and 3 are different as one forgets things and does things for their own strange reasons and can be quiet whilst the other is loud, energetic and by nature all consumed by things that can be played far more darkly than the other.
 

9. an entertainer, who uses illusionary magic to tell stories
This is even moreso substituting profession for personality. This tells me literally nothing about what this person is like, as a person. I can't even derive any meaningful values from this description, because they could be in the entertainment business for almost any reason. It's like saying "actor in action films" is a personality. That covers everyone from Arnold Schwarzenegger to Nicholas Cage, from Jason Momoa to Ryan Reynolds.

I would argue i and 3 are different as one forgets things and does things for their own strange reasons and can be quiet whilst the other is loud, energetic and by nature all consumed by things that can be played far more darkly than the other.
As someone who is nowhere near being an elder (I'm a child of the late 80s, dammit!) but who meets both of the descriptions you just gave for the elder, I am suspicious about this claim. As someone who can get loud and energetic specifically when my areas of fascination show up and absolutely get "all consumed by things," despite not really being a notably young man anymore, I further find this questionable at best.

Young people can be absent-minded and eccentric, especially ones who are prone to hyperfocus and bursts of frenetic energy. Older folks can easily be spry and boisterous, and IME the older people get, the harder it is for them to do mental multi-track drifting, to reference that silly trolley problem meme. Plus, the elderly are a lot more susceptible to the problems of self-neglect, meaning all those dark things now have an extra edge of "and it could also kill you!"

So...again, this seems like essentially the same overall personality, just predicated on whether the character is currently young or currently old, and that's not a personality trait.
 

This is even moreso substituting profession for personality. This tells me literally nothing about what this person is like, as a person. I can't even derive any meaningful values from this description, because they could be in the entertainment business for almost any reason. It's like saying "actor in action films" is a personality. That covers everyone from Arnold Schwarzenegger to Nicholas Cage, from Jason Momoa to Ryan Reynolds.


As someone who is nowhere near being an elder (I'm a child of the late 80s, dammit!) but who meets both of the descriptions you just gave for the elder, I am suspicious about this claim. As someone who can get loud and energetic specifically when my areas of fascination show up and absolutely get "all consumed by things," despite not really being a notably young man anymore, I further find this questionable at best.

Young people can be absent-minded and eccentric, especially ones who are prone to hyperfocus and bursts of frenetic energy. Older folks can easily be spry and boisterous, and IME the older people get, the harder it is for them to do mental multi-track drifting, to reference that silly trolley problem meme. Plus, the elderly are a lot more susceptible to the problems of self-neglect, meaning all those dark things now have an extra edge of "and it could also kill you!"

So...again, this seems like essentially the same overall personality, just predicated on whether the character is currently young or currently old, and that's not a personality trait.
I cut out the age in my examples, I worry you are mixing the fact you are clearly both type in with that being true for all possible examples, you can be both at once but both can be separate and even a brief overview of a character can get really different when you get into the details.
 

Can you imagine two gnomes with very different personalities?

Case closed.
Yes. Very easily, in fact. I have an easier time doing this with Gnomes than I do Dwarves. If you don't know how to, I suggest you read Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes' section on Gnome personalities.
Exactly what the gnome lacks.

'Diet Kinder', 'Obnoxious Mockery of Science' and 'Hates the ones that should be the other Small race instead of us' are not resonant concepts.
How are they at all like Kender besides the fact that they're a small race that some people think they're annoying? They have a sense of property.

The whole "mockery of science"-thing is typically specific to Dragonlance. Definitely not a part of most other campaign settings where they have a listed niche (Eberron, Exandria, etc). I don't like Dragonlance or its approach to D&D's races, so I can agree with you that Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance are obnoxious.

(I also find it kind of funny that some people are complaining about gnomes having no resonant concept and others trying to say that all gnomes have the same personality. Both statements cannot be true, and are both being used to justify hatred of Gnomes.)
Because they have 10 different identities.
As do Elves, and Dragonborn, and Tieflings, and plenty of other races/lineages in D&D, and most people don't complain about those parts of the races.
In the 2024, just allow the dwarves and elves to be small or medium and you've covered 90% of the gnomes' raison d'être.
I mean, the same could be said for Halflings, to an even greater extent because they're literally just "Humans, but 3 feet tall!". And I don't see people complaining about/mocking Halflings nearly as much as they do Halflings, so I really don't think this is a major part of why people hate Gnomes. And the one time I recommended doing that to Halflings, people acted like the hobby would end if Halflings were just folded into Humans.
 

I like gnomes, but we run D&D in Golarion, and Pathfinder's gnomes at least have the whole living cartoon from the "Land of no Consequences" thing going for them. I cranked it up a bit further with their magical heritage, so they don't even reproduce sexually but rather romantically. See, when two gnomes love each other very much, they go into the woods and find a baby. Or maybe the sewers if they're in a city. Either way, they find a gnomeling. Also sometimes one gnome might love something else. Like a a painting or the concept of irony. I'll take pan fae critters that literally die of boredom over knockoff dwarves any day of the week.
 

No, Bolares... it couldn't be said for any race. Because of Cultural Weight and Cultural Momentum.

Elves are woodland beings. Doesn't matter what your specific setting has to say about them, culturally they wear green and have bows and are often spellcasters because pop culture agrees upon it.
Except for Drow, Sea Elves, Shadar-Kai, and plenty of other variants from D&D's 40+ year-long history. D&D hasn't followed the pop culture definition of Elves as "Just Legolas" for decades. In D&D, Drow have even bigger cultural identities from forest-dwelling Elves than Rock Gnomes have from Forest Gnomes.
Halflings are cooks and happy little jokesters who live in cozy little homes that big people bump their heads upon. They're farmers and simple peasant folk. Because pop culture agrees upon it.
Because Halflings have only been interesting in like two settings. In every other setting, they're just short humans.
Dwarves are smiths and warriors who live underground and make some of the most amazing weapons, armor, and metalwork possible! Because pop culture agrees upon it.
Except Duergar. And I would rather have three distinct identities that make up subraces of the Gnome (Svirfneblin, Forest Gnomes, Rock Gnomes) than two subraces that have basically the same identity (Hill and Mountain Dwarves).
Sure. You can make metropolitan elves, like Seramus says. You can slap various cultures onto elves using A5e's awesome Heritage/Culture split.

But ultimately, when some rando on the street thinks about elves, they'll think about point-eared archers wearing leaf-brooches and art deco embroidery on their green tunics and brown boots. And your elves will be a "So elves -but-" because you're working off that baseline and making changes.

Gnomes? Gnomes have no cultural weight outside of this smug lil' guy.

david2.jpg


And that is, very clearly, not a D&D Gnome.
I've never watched that show, but just from that image he looks like a friendly woodland spirit that befriends animals. Which is precisely what Forest Gnomes are. Sure, D&D Gnomes aren't restricted in fashion to Santa-style beards and dunce caps, but I really don't see how that's a point against them.
 



I cut out the age in my examples, I worry you are mixing the fact you are clearly both type in with that being true for all possible examples, you can be both at once but both can be separate and even a brief overview of a character can get really different when you get into the details.
My point was not that there cannot be differences, it was that fundamentally these things you present as two totally distinct options are really embellishments on the same fundamental concept. As I summarized earlier, the eccentric expert, embellished with additional physical detail (age, physical fitness, residence) and usually picking at least one of the aforementioned binaries: nature vs indistry, magic vs technology, meticulous vs reckless, and/or gregarious vs shy.

These are all, ultimately, the "eccentric genius/expert" personality, just embellished; embellishments are great and should always be pursued with most characters, but they don't change the underlying chassis. You aren't going to get, for example, a "Valley Girl" character from this, or a "Biker Gang Leader" character. You can certainly tweak knobs and dial up or down certain traits. But fundamentally, all of these characters will be (if you'll pardon a somewhat reductive term) huge nerds and not much else. Jocks, preps, greasers, punks, etc. are not going to be represented here.

This is, in part, why I'm pushing so hard against the equivocation between personality and profession. Profession is not totally useless when it comes to personality, it can give us hints and ideas. But I used my actor analogy above for a reason. Being an action movie actor tells you very little about a person, other than that they (probably, but not guaranteed!) aren't super shy, since they have to work with others and do public appearances. Being an entertainer doesn't really tell you anything about what a character values, what drives their behavior, what makes them "tick." That's what personality is, and profession is mostly orthogonal to personality. (I say "mostly" because some professions, such as "research scientist," are strongly associated with certain personality traits like "curiosity," so it's not like there's ZERO relation. But the relation is weak at best in most cases.)

also find it kind of funny that some people are complaining about gnomes having no resonant concept and others trying to say that all gnomes have the same personality. Both statements cannot be true, and are both being used to justify hatred of Gnomes.
I don't see these as even slightly incompatible, so I'm confused here. The reason gnomes only have one or two actually distinct personalities IS that they struggle to find broadly-appealing resonant concepts so that they can have multiple distinct personalities under one umbrella. Tieflings' core schtick is being inherent outsiders and quite literally demonized because of their heritage, but that resonant concept manifests in multiple ways: the "stop being so stereotypical" version, the "we name our children after virtues to defy stereotype" version, the "learn about who my dark ancestor was" version, the "I have this dark power and don't know what to do with it" version, etc. Elves as we know them today were basically singlehandedly invented by Tolkien, but that means we have actual personality archetypes in Elrond, Galadriel, Feanor and his sons, Arwen, Luthien, Cirdan, etc., and we can combine that in various ways with the sidhe of Gaelic myth to produce a wide variety of options while still retaining authenticity with these classic stories.

Gnomes have minimal to nonexistent representation in basically all widely-known myth and folklore. They have little to no representation outside of D&D and its creative descendants like World of Warcraft...where they are heavily typecast in a Flanderized version of their Dragonlance tinker gnome version. In theory there SHOULD be more to them (they can tap into the same fae concepts as elves, after all), but in practice there isn't, leaving them stuck without either of the usual avenues of escape: they don't have a Tolkien-equivalent to give us distinct individual personality archetypes to intermix and explore, and they don't have broad thematic concepts they can riff off of that aren't already covered by other, more popular options.

I think its because, for some reason, the gnomish traits arent passive facts, they are always cranked up to 11.
I think this directly relates to my previous sentence. Because they lack for both broad themes and individual character archetypes, there is pressure to make the character stand out in some other way. This pressure frequently leads to "quirky" behavior and excessive emphasis on the things intended to be unique to or special about gnomes. Unfortunately, that tends to mean being a comedy relief character and not taking things particularly seriously, even when they should be.

We can draw some fruitful comparisons with other uncommon options in D&D, like drow and githzerai. Drow as player characters were basically invented by Drizzt (which my phone wants to autocorrect to "Frizzy," and I find that hilarous.) The grizzled misunderstood loner hero, doing the right thing even though both his homeland and his adopted new home despise him. It's all very edgelordy and got REALLY old very quickly. WotC is working on addressing some of these issues by presenting other cultures of drow, but it's gonna be a process, not a single event.

Githzerai, meanwhile, were almost totally reinvented purely by the character Dak'kon in Planescape: Torment, and yet post-PS:T githzerai never had anywhere near the negative response (nor the explosive popularity that prompted that response) that drow have. We can draw useful comparisons here: Dak'kon is a serious character, one who is not edgy (despite his karach blade), but instead wise, cautious, intelligent, and clearly having much more going on beneath the surface. Learning about him and his people is an interesting and difficult thing, and you can see his inner turmoil (rather a core part of the game's story, that all your friends are tormented and drawn to you as a result of your own torment), not as a kind of facile "wah wah I am an exile hated in the land where I save people, woe is me" way, but in a very serious and dignified way.

Gnomes, unfortunately, lean closer to the drow on this one. They unfortunately come across as weakly-written DL expies who aren't really serious as characters. If they aren't the expert on some topic (and thus usually an NPC), they're comedy relief. It would be great if more works used them to better effect. Such things are few and far between, and absolute hegemonic things like World of Warcraft significantly harm any possibility of moving out of DL's shadow.
 

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