Orville: New Horizons (Spoilers)

[Ryujin]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

To that I would add my own anti-Sun Tzu quote - You don't defeat your enemy by becoming him.

 

[Umbran]

To that I would add my own anti-Sun Tzu quote - You don't defeat your enemy by becoming him.

And another:
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Micah Sweet]

Things moved quickly, but I quite liked that. I watched the last episode of Stranger Things immediately after, and boy was it slow in comparison!

That's funny. I did the exact opposite (Stranger Things first).

 

[Umbran]

Where is The Orville tabletop RPG?

Mechanically, any game that supports Star Trek to your liking will do. Star Trek Adventures or Ashen Stars could do it easily.

Setting is the problem. That'd have to be published/licensed by the IP holder.

Edit to add: I can really recommend at least looking at Ashen Stars, if not for the mechanics, then for its advice on session/adventure structure. It gives guidance of how to do the A-plot, B-plot structure commonly seen in Trek and Orville, but not typically a part of RPG adventure design.

 

[Stalker0]

And another:
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I wonder if we could go back in time to when the Incan first met the Spanish colonials, show them the destiny of their people, and ask them “do the think peaceful coexistence was the right idea?”….I wonder what they would say.

Again your quotes are assuming a lesser consequence, that becoming a monster is the worst possible scenario. I would argue the entire removal of your species is a just a smidge higher on the “worst case scenario” list. The generations that follow me can always undo the legacy of my “monstrous acts”…but not if there aren’t any generations left.


And hey I love me some Franklin, one of my favorite historical figures, but don’t forget that he was part of a group willing to slaughter people to acquire “meer freedoms”. And top of that list of freedoms, the right to life. If he was in a scenario where the life of all humanity was going to be snuffed out…you don’t think he would call for any and all actions needed to stop that?

 

[Stalker0]

In terms of the episode, solid, I quite enjoyed it.

I liked that in the end, they did not "convert" Charlie. Though Charlie was able to find the emotional capacity to forgive Isaac (which was a really cool scene) she still fully believed that the Kaylon were a threat so great it was worth taking them out. Yet, at the end of the day, she was an officer and a solider, and she did her duty. She did it not out of any personal desire, but because it had to be done. It's rare to see that in shows sometimes so was cool to see.

I also liked Ted Danson's character. One thing that has always irked me about star trek are the admirals, they are always villainous or incompetent, they always seem to get in the way more than anything. conversely the Admirals on Orville always seem pretty rock solid, I could see a captain looking at them and going "I want to be them when I grow up". In terms of Ted Danson's character "Perry", I appreciated that after he committed his crimes, he didn't try to escape, or try to justify his way out of it. He did what he did out of his pure beliefs, and he then immediately went back to face the music. Now you can disagree with him (and ideally your supposed to in favor of the main side), but I like that they didn't try to weasel him at the end to make him more dislikeable, again they maintained the tough moral quandary they all were facing.

Though I'm enjoying the "moral debate" in the rest of the thread, I understand it is a story after all, and so the idea that the Kaylon would see Charlie's sacrifice and realize their error was a solid way to go. (and it didn't hurt that the Union had the weapon and didn't immediately destroy them, which directly contradicted their beliefs about organics)

 

[Rabulias]

Well, the show itself just addressed this question - Season 3 Episode 9, "Domino" gives its answer to it this question rather clearly.

I don't think it's so clear. The Union created the device in the first place, and while Kaylon genocide was not its sole intent, they had to consider the implications of that possibility in its creation. What if the Kaylon had not agreed to a ceasefire and kept fighting? The Union could have very well continued using the device until all the Kaylon were dead (possibly eventually using a similar plan to the Moclan-Krill plan), and I believe this too was a possible outcome the Union were prepared for. Not their preference, obviously, but they would act in self-defense.

Once the device was stolen, the Union felt responsible for its misuse, and informed the Kaylon to honor their ceasefire agreement. I believe this outweighed (just slightly) wanting to prevent a Kaylon genocide. What if the Moclan-Krill alliance had created the weapon first? I am sure the Union (if they knew about the device) would have advocated a course of action similar to what they did in the first part of this episode to reach an armistice of some kind, but if the Moclans and Krill refused? Would the Union have made the same effort to stop it? Of course, in that case, the Union is not the one committing the genocide.

 

[Ryujin]

I don't think it's so clear. The Union created the device in the first place, and while Kaylon genocide was not its sole intent, they had to consider the implications of that possibility in its creation. What if the Kaylon had not agreed to a ceasefire and kept fighting? The Union could have very well continued using the device until all the Kaylon were dead (possibly eventually using a similar plan to the Moclan-Krill plan), and I believe this too was a possible outcome the Union were prepared for. Not their preference, obviously, but they would act in self-defense.

Once the device was stolen, the Union felt responsible for its misuse, and informed the Kaylon to honor their ceasefire agreement. I believe this outweighed (just slightly) wanting to prevent a Kaylon genocide. What if the Moclan-Krill alliance had created the weapon first? I am sure the Union (if they knew about the device) would have advocated a course of action similar to what they did in the first part of this episode to reach an armistice of some kind, but if the Moclans and Krill refused? Would the Union have made the same effort to stop it? Of course, in that case, the Union is not the one committing the genocide.

The union would have continued to use it in the way that they initially did; to win specific single battles. They wouldn't have turned in into a genocidal weapon of mass destruction, because that's not who they are. Eventually they might have been in the same position to enforce an armistice with the Kaylon, though after much more shed blood (oil).

Fortunately that's not a debate we need to have, as it's not what happened in the story. The two, who were in a unique position to create the weapon, were on Orville. If the story had instead played out that way then the morality play would have required that The Union, together with the Kaylon or alone, would have been duty bound to try and disable such a weapon.

 

[briggart]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety." - Dr. Benjamin Franklin

Isn't that exactly what the Union is doing? The Union with the Moclan support managed to get a stalemate with the Kaylon only thanks to the help of the Krill, which by S3E8 are basically in open war with the Union. The Union by itself was losing 5 ships to a Kylon one, the Krill were doing a bit better at 3-to-1 ratio. So the Union has basically purchased some "little temporary Safety" for few thousand Moclan females, before the Kaylon apocalypse. Not to mention that expelling Moclan from the Union basically means abandoning future Moclan females to their patriarchal society: Bortus originally requested a sex change for Topa, he only changed his mind thanks to his interactions with the Orville crew.

So again, to me it's not an issue of abandoning your principles, but of finding the most effective way to guard those principles.

 

[Ryujin]

Isn't that exactly what the Union is doing? The Union with the Moclan support managed to get a stalemate with the Kaylon only thanks to the help of the Krill, which by S3E8 are basically in open war with the Union. The Union by itself was losing 5 ships to a Kylon one, the Krill were doing a bit better at 3-to-1 ratio. So the Union has basically purchased some "little temporary Safety" for few thousand Moclan females, before the Kaylon apocalypse. Not to mention that expelling Moclan from the Union basically means abandoning future Moclan females to their patriarchal society: Bortus originally requested a sex change for Topa, he only changed his mind thanks to his interactions with the Orville crew.

So again, to me it's not an issue of abandoning your principles, but of finding the most effective way to guard those principles.

Yes, that's exactly what they did, which is what makes it stand out all the more when they decide to do the "right thing." Suddenly they've ended that war.