D&D 5E [+] Questions for zero character death players and DMs…

[doctorbadwolf]

But yet you’re arguing against my points which have only ever been “unexpected character death can have a place in some character-story driven campaigns,” and “unexpected character death is not always a punishment from the DM for what they consider incorrect player behavior,” both of which I made only in response to claims to the contrary made in this thread.

That is not an accurate portrayal of the discussion. I am going to step away from interacting with you for a bit, as a result of this. Normally I could just take a lap and come back to it, but my bandwidth is too limited right now to not get outwardly angry in response to this kind of frustration.

 

[Maxperson]

And a crit happening on an attack you don't know exists...? What kind of planning is supposed to account for that?

There isn't, but at a point the decision about what system to play matters. When you choose to play D&D, you are opting into a game where death due to powers, crits, etc. happen. Even from attacks you don't know about. D&D is designed to be a game where dangerous combat is a huge component of the game.

4e and 5e mitigated that a lot by giving greater hit points and a much higher threshold for instant death, something which really isn't much of a risk past the first few levels, but they still carry that risk with them. And by opting to play D&D you are assuming that risk, so it's not a punishment if bad luck strikes and you die to a crit and high damage rolls on an attack you didn't know a creature had.

I've lost PCs to random crits during random encounters. None of them were punishments. When I played with a DM and my PC died ever time I missed a game due to work, that was a punishment. He was deliberately killing my PCs in retribution for missing games. I left that game.

If you want death to be off the table in D&D, you need to find a like minded group to play with. They're out there, but might be hard to find due to D&D being designed to be the opposite of that.

 

[Maxperson]

And in psychology, and when criticizing systems and what they punish vs reinforce.

How Punishment Influences Behavior

In psychology, punishment is defined as an adverse consequence that reduces a behavior. Learn more about the different types of punishment and how it works.

www.verywellmind.com

It seems punishment in psychology is intentional as well.

No, that is nonsense.

If you can't prove that the system intends to punish, then what is left is the feeling of being punished without any proof of punishment, and while feelings are valid, that doesn't make them correct. You can feel punished by something that isn't a punishment, but is merely a negative consequence of something.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Umm… It’s called a critical hit? Happens on a natural 20, which is 5% of d20 rolls?

A critical hit is absolutely a predictable event, and an important one to take into consideration when deciding whether to press on or return to safety.

I asked this in the other thread. Do you bring an umbrella with you when the weather report says there is a 5% chance of rain?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How Punishment Influences Behavior

In psychology, punishment is defined as an adverse consequence that reduces a behavior. Learn more about the different types of punishment and how it works.

www.verywellmind.com

It seems punishment in psychology is intentional as well.

Okay?

If you can't prove that the system intends to punish, then what is left is the feeling of being punished without any proof of punishment, and while feelings are valid, that doesn't make them correct. You can feel punished by something that isn't a punishment, but is merely a negative consequence of something.

If a system reliably creates negative outcomes for a particular behavior, it is punishing that behavior.

This extremely pedantic tangential argument about the definition of the word “punishment” is both nonsensical and useless. I have been seeing the usage I have employed here as a common usage in the context of games for at least twenty years.

 

[James Gasik]

The odds of being struck by lightning are less than one in a million. If my adventurer is outside during a storm, I suppose I should have planned to get hit by (natural) lightning that day...

 

[Maxperson]

If a system reliably creates negative outcomes for a particular behavior, it is punishing that behavior.

Let's go with that. I have never, in any system of D&D, seen instant death by crit happen anywhere close to reliably. It's outright rare past the first few levels, and uncommon even then with 1e-3e. With 4e and 5e instant crit death at low levels is rare, and at 5th level or higher I haven't seen it happen in 5e and never played 4e.

What does D&D do to reliably kill PCs now that 1e-2e are over?

 

[Maxperson]

The odds of being struck by lightning are less than one in a million. If my adventurer is outside during a storm, I suppose I should have planned to get hit by (natural) lightning that day...

Are you in plate mail walking through a field?

 

[James Gasik]

Are you in plate mail walking through a field?

Not since I played Baldur's Gate 1, no.

 

[Maxperson]

Not since I played Baldur's Gate 1, no.

I said that in jest, but it is also pretty accurate. I have described very storm weather to my players and had the fighters take off their plate mail before going outside.

The odds of being struck by lightning in the U.S. is about 1 in a million, but that's only part of the story. In Montana with its frequent thunder storms, the odds are about 1 in 250,000, while in California with it's infrequent storms the odds are about 1 in 7.5 million. Now imagine you are in Montana walking through an open field, rather than the 1 in 250k odds for the entire state(which includes forests and other high ground), your odds of being struck are probably significantly more likely. Put on platemail and it becomes even more likely to be struck.

In D&D thinking about things like that can make the difference, because the DM might be aware of things like this and you might end up struck by lightning when you could have prevented it.