D&D General Is Surprise worth it as a mechanic?

[Vaalingrade]

Coming off one of the many perception threads as well as being in the process of writing up a lot of the minutia rules for my own system, I'm struck by the thought that... maybe surprise is not worth having as a mechanic.

The practical upshot is that it adds a level of tactics to the proceedings and possible variety to encounters. Then there's rogue-like characters who get some sort of alpha strike ability for acting in surprise.

On the other hand, it requires engaging the already historically janky Stealth minigame for one round of minimally different combat a small percentage out of the total combats in the game.

Now, obviously, it can be redesigned, but there's still the matter of it being something that comes up in a fraction of combats unless the players are actively trying to do it all the time. But the question is: is it worth devoting time redesigning and writing up a new set of surprise rules for the minimal effect it actually has? and if One were to redesign it, what would you want to do with it?

 

[R_J_K75]

Yes. I think if the rules are concise and quick it's worth it as long as it's not used for every encounter. Some encounters it's impossible for either side to have surprise. I remember in 2E it being pretty straight forward and one good round of surprise could turn the tide of a combat, game or even a campaign.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. I think if the rules are concise and quick it's worth it as long as it's not used for every encounter. Some encounters it's impossible for either side to have surprise. I remember in 2E it being pretty straight forward and one good round of surprise could turn the tide of a combat, game or even a campaign.

I agree. Surprise often has far more than a minimal effect. An entire round where only 1 side gets to act is often huge.

 

[Reynard]

In most cases it is probably sufficient to just give the ambushers initiative in the first round. I am sure there are corner cases you would have to adjudicate differently, but it is probably not worth worrying about until it actually comes up.

 

[R_J_K75]

I agree. Surprise often has far more than a minimal effect. An entire round where only 1 side gets to act is often huge.

Especially when initiative was rolled round to round. If one side got surprise, then initiative it could make a world of difference.

 

[Maxperson]

Especially when initiative was rolled round to round. If one side got surprise, then initiative it could make a world of difference.

We roll round to round in my game. We tried RAW for a campaign(year or so) and we all decided it was more fun to roll per round. Surprise stil made a significant difference in that first campaign.

 

[toucanbuzz]

I like rewarding players for doing something other than charging in like maniacs, so surprise is a great way to do that.

Normally surprise is easy because common sense prevails. I don't need a check. But when I do, the rules get a bit janky.

Group Checks. A poor way to do it that doesn't make sense. If 2/4 folks beat enemy passive perception, but #3 and #4 are wearing loud plate mail and playing flutes, the check still succeeds technically because half made it.

Individual Checks. Better, but can get tricky to track on a foe-by-foe basis (e.g. some PCs are noticed and some aren't by some enemies). For me, it's usually all or nothing. If even one enemy notices one of you, they'll do something that will alert others to trouble.

Beyond that, I've stumbled across a proposal that maybe certain PCs can "take lead point" on physical activities, such as sneaking ahead and giving pointers to other PCs. Translation: if they succeed, other PCs get advantage on the check. Another alternative was to add a modifier based on the lead PC's roll, up to +2 or -2 based on how good or bad they rolled.

 

[Reynard]

We roll round to round in my game. We tried RAW for a campaign(year or so) and we all decided it was more fun to roll per round. Surprise stil made a significant difference in that first campaign.

For my Rappan Athuk campaign we started last night (using fantasy grounds) I implemented round by round initiative and it amped up the tension in a good way. I think we will keep it that way for a while. I will also implement each individual enemy rolling their own initiative -- that kind of thing doesn't eat time on a VTT the way it does at a meat space table.

 

[Maxperson]

I like rewarding players for doing something other than charging in like maniacs, so surprise is a great way to do that.

Normally surprise is easy because common sense prevails. I don't need a check. But when I do, the rules get a bit janky.

Group Checks. A poor way to do it that doesn't make sense. If 2/4 folks beat enemy passive perception, but #3 and #4 are wearing loud plate mail and playing flutes, the check still succeeds technically because half made it.

Individual Checks. Better, but can get tricky to track on a foe-by-foe basis (e.g. some PCs are noticed and some aren't by some enemies). For me, it's usually all or nothing. If even one enemy notices one of you, they'll do something that will alert others to trouble.

The point of surprise and how RAW correctly handles it, is that you don't have time to warn the others. You are not surprised, but they are. That said, if I have 20 enemies in the battle I'm not going to roll 20 times if the PCs try to surprise them. I will usually have multiple small groups. 5 archers, 6 orcs with axes, etc. I'll roll once for each of those groupings, so one group might be surprised, but another might not. That way I only have to roll a few times, which is easy.

 

[Maxperson]

For my Rappan Athuk campaign we started last night (using fantasy grounds) I implemented round by round initiative and it amped up the tension in a good way. I think we will keep it that way for a while. I will also implement each individual enemy rolling their own initiative -- that kind of thing doesn't eat time on a VTT the way it does at a meat space table.

That's true. It's an advantage of virtual. Since I play physically with my group, I do initiative like I do surprise. By groupings. The only individuals that roll are the special ones. the orc warlock and priest would each have their own rolls.