D&D General What's wrong with Perception?

[overgeeked]

Ok, but what's the upside here? You don't invest in Perception so you get hit by every trap, miss every secret door, and get ambushed by any enemy with Stealth? How is that fun?

That’s a bit more hyperbolic than normal for around here, eh? Your options are not “perfect” or “suck.” There’s a wide range in between. That’s what the d20, ability score, and DC are for. Proficiency only adds +10-30%. It doesn’t make you always miss everything forever and ever.

 

[Maxperson]

Ok, but what's the upside here? You don't invest in Perception so you get hit by every trap, miss every secret door, and get ambushed by any enemy with Stealth? How is that fun?

That might have been true in 3e, but 5e has bounded accuracy. Bounded accuracy gives everyone a shot at avoiding those things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think what we're more likely to have here is a player disgruntled that most people seem satisfied with the game as it is rather than match his own preferences. And is then willing to project laziness onto the designers rather than accept that fact.

When the player base that the company making a game you love expands and changes so drastically in just a few years, I think that's an understandable reaction. That "most people" that are satisfied is a fairly new phenomenon when compared to the history of the game, and some people like me who have participated in most of that history don't like being left behind because WotC follows the money.

 

[James Gasik]

That’s a bit more hyperbolic than normal for around here, eh? Your options are not “perfect” or “suck.” There’s a wide range in between. That’s what the d20, ability score, and DC are for. Proficiency only adds +10-30%. It doesn’t make you always miss everything forever and ever.

And what Cruentus said wasn't hyperbolic?

 

[overgeeked]

And what Cruentus said wasn't hyperbolic?

Their experience with 5E players perfectly matches my experience with 5E players. I’ve had players rage quit over taking one point of damage. They will nova and long rest before every fight if given the chance. It might not match your experiences, but I can’t call it hyperbole.

 

[MarkB]

The first problem with Acrobatics is its name. Players naturally take it in order to be able to do the things that acrobats can do - but, in practice, most of the things that acrobats can do are governed in-game by Athletics.

The second is saving throws. Of the things that definitely do fall into the scope of Acrobatics - like balancing on a ledge, or catching something through quick reflexes - very often, they get resolved in-game through a dexterity saving throw rather than an acrobatics check.

Between those two factors, it tends to wind up being a very narrowly-applicable skill that is hardly ever called for.

 

[James Gasik]

Let me share some examples of why players might think they need to be good at Perception. This is the Yawning Portal conversion of Sunless Citadel, an adventure for Tier 1 adventurers.

Highlights-

(Area 4) Secret Door: a trapped secret door leads to area 5. Finding the door requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception check).

(Area 9) Secret Door: a secret door in the western wall leads to area 10. Finding the door requires a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check.

(Area 10) Quasit hiding here to ambush characters. Stealth +5. Secret Door: finding the door in the southern wall requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check.

(Area 11) Secret Door: a secret trapdoor in the floor requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check to find.

(Area 15) Treasure: a thorough search of the firepit and a successful DC 15 (Perception) check reveals a jade figurine.

(Area 24) Hidden Pit: with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check, a character notices the door's unmortared rim.

(Area 25) Fountain: a character who makes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices a mostly worn-away inscription in Draconic. Scythe Trap: the blade is concealed in a slot in the ceiling. A successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check can find the slot before the trap is sprung.

(Area 27) Treasure: a secret compartment in the shrine, requiring a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check to find...

(Area 28) Investigating: a character who succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices tracks in the dust here.

(Area 29) Trapped Fountain: a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check reveals suspicious metallic tubes in the carved dragon's mouth. A character who makes a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check notices a mostly worn-away inscription in Draconic.

(Area 31) with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check, someone who carefully opens the door might spot the bell attached to the door about 3 feet off the ground. A character who examines the space around the door before opening it and succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices the damage done to the door when the goblins fastened the bell to it.

I've got 10 more pages to go on this adventure, but I think that's enough to give you all the idea.

 

[Cruentus]

Ok, but what's the upside here? You don't invest in Perception so you get hit by every trap, miss every secret door, and get ambushed by any enemy with Stealth? How is that fun?

I wasn't trying to be hyberbolic, and like I said, this IS my experience at my table.

What is the upside? How do you play the game then? If traps, secret doors, ambushes and surprise are so horrible that they should ALWAYS be avoided, then why have them? What is the fun in their inclusion? I ask these questions mostly rhetorically by the way.

The game has systems built into it to handle these types of situations. People apply those systems differently at different tables. Different tables have different levels of tolerance of variablility, chance, and danger. Clearly there is a middle ground. But even bounded accuracy doesn't provide a middle ground. If the player(s) wants to maximize their Perception, and see and use it as an "avoid all, see all stat", then that is their prerogative as a player, and the DM either supports that or doesn't.

But it does appear that what the "modern" gamer is looking for in their game of dungeons and dragons has significantly shifted, as far as I have been able to tell. One could also argue that traps, ambushes, secret doors, and surprise interfere with player agency, and should be removed from the game, or be relegated to optional deep in the DMG. I mean, its just no fun to be caught by a trap. Or to not be able to react to an ambush. Or to miss a secret door...

My players feel this way. If you do anything that they absolutely 100% can't see coming, or avoid, then, why, that's dirty pool old man! "How come I didn't see the trap?" "Well, you failed the roll." "But I would have looked again!"...

 

[overgeeked]

Let me share some examples of why players might think they need to be good at Perception. This is the Yawning Portal conversion of Sunless Citadel, an adventure for Tier 1 adventurers.

I've got 10 more pages to go on this adventure, but I think that's enough to give you all the idea.

Why are players reading the module? They shouldn’t be. And yes, so? Sometimes you miss stuff. So what? Unless it’s necessary to continue playing it’s optional content.

DC10 is a 55% chance of success without any bonuses.

DC15 is a 30% chance of success without any bonuses.

DC20 is a 5% chance of success without any bonuses.

Sometimes things are hard. Sometimes the PCs fail. It’s a game with dice. Sometimes you roll low.

 

[Cruentus]

Let me share some examples of why players might think they need to be good at Perception. This is the Yawning Portal conversion of Sunless Citadel, an adventure for Tier 1 adventurers.

Highlights-

(Area 4) Secret Door: a trapped secret door leads to area 5. Finding the door requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception check).

(Area 9) Secret Door: a secret door in the western wall leads to area 10. Finding the door requires a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check.

(Area 10) Quasit hiding here to ambush characters. Stealth +5. Secret Door: finding the door in the southern wall requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check.

(Area 11) Secret Door: a secret trapdoor in the floor requires a DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check to find.

(Area 15) Treasure: a thorough search of the firepit and a successful DC 15 (Perception) check reveals a jade figurine.

(Area 24) Hidden Pit: with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check, a character notices the door's unmortared rim.

(Area 25) Fountain: a character who makes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices a mostly worn-away inscription in Draconic. Scythe Trap: the blade is concealed in a slot in the ceiling. A successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check can find the slot before the trap is sprung.

(Area 27) Treasure: a secret compartment in the shrine, requiring a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check to find...

(Area 28) Investigating: a character who succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices tracks in the dust here.

(Area 29) Trapped Fountain: a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check reveals suspicious metallic tubes in the carved dragon's mouth. A character who makes a successful DC 20 Wisdom (Perception) check notices a mostly worn-away inscription in Draconic.

(Area 31) with a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check, someone who carefully opens the door might spot the bell attached to the door about 3 feet off the ground. A character who examines the space around the door before opening it and succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check notices the damage done to the door when the goblins fastened the bell to it.

I've got 10 more pages to go on this adventure, but I think that's enough to give you all the idea.

IMO, its mostly terrible adventure design...

Why are the DC's for doors so high? Assuming that a character has +2 Prof, and +2 or 3 for their Wis, they have to roll a 15 or so to see the door? Is it intentionally so well hidden as to need that level of Perception? If not, bad design. If so, why?

And are there other ways to access the areas hidden behind the doors that are less onerous? Why not?

Is accessing those doors critical to the adventure's success? If so. Bad design.

And frankly, half of those rolls are stupid. I have to roll a DC 15 to find a jade figurine in a firepit? Or to notice missing mortar? So I have a 50% chance of missing those? Bad design. They could both be auto successes if someone pokes through the firepit, or look around where the mortar is.

With adventures like this, no wonder people in the other Perception thread said "I roll Perception". It seems that at least this adventure is modeled on Perception checks everywhere, and a lot of times where they aren't needed.

YMMV

Edit: you realize that adventures like this are training players to see Perception as super necessary, right? And if this is how new DMs are being shown the ropes...