D&D 5E Saving throws in 5e

[OB1]

I see what you are getting at, but personally, I like the strategic element that this implementation of bounded accuracy provides at higher levels on both offense and defense. PCs need to account for their weaknesses at higher levels, with plans in place to cover those weaknesses when fighting enemies that can exploit them. The same is true for PCs with much lower HP totals at high levels, who can be taken down in one shot. Having counterspell and dispel magic can be just as important to protecting your fighter as having cure wounds and heal is for protecting your wizard.

That said, I do have a house rule that PCs can take the Resilient feat as many times as they wish, as I see no issue with allowing players who choose to get better in saves at ASI levels to do so.

 

[DEFCON 1]

the fact that to make dragons scary WotC made them all casters had me sad in 3e... but the way you just put this make me think more and more D&D is not the right game for me...

Well, all monsters were scary in 1E and 2E because PCs all had lower ACs and HP. So getting your ass kicked was easier in those editions by even just hit point damage.

Starting in 3E they did start to make PCs heartier-- more character options to built up defenses and such-- so the fact that they used magic as a way to not make those players too cocky was their answer to the situation. Seemed like a valid reason to me.

Personally, I really don't get so many people's aversion to magic in D&D? Why getting your ass kicked by weapon-users and those that just target HP is somehow more acceptable than getting your ass kicked by powerful magic? I'm sure you all have your reasons... but I personally don't get it. To me, losing a fight is losing a fight, whether it's by magic or by steel. It sucks either way.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

When you roll stats you don't end up with the vast majority of fighters having an 8 charisma. Casters can't know what the low stat for a class is.

I mean you can argue that having diffrent stats give you a chance to suprise someone... but odds are what every array you have (pre gen or rolled randomly) your top stat is going to your attack stat (str or dex for fighters) your second to con and you are prof in str and con.. so even let assume teh most lucky rolls and after race you get 18,17,15,15,13,12 and the stat bumps go for all 3 over the 11 levels so 20 18 16 16 14 12 and you put them in a slightly odd order

12 str 20 dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 wis 18 cha that still nets you (again with the magic cloak +1 eating an attunement slot) str +6 dex +7 con +8 Int +3 wis +4 cha +5 pretty amazing saves and against the 17 (still not giving that wizard the 18 you started with though, nor a magic item) you end up with str 50/50 dex 55/45 con 60/40 int 35/65 wis 40/60 cha 45/55

so targeting the warrior not in heavy armor in str, int or wis still isn't 50/50 and the cha (that you called out) just bearly better then it

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I like the strategic element that this implementation of bounded accuracy provides at higher levels on both offense and defense.

on offense that is a strategic game only casters can play... fighters target AC and AC alone...

in fact I have to laugh the fighter class (the one I would think should be about strategic play) briskly can't do it offensive and the best defense he can get is to acquire magic items...

 

[DEFCON 1]

If this is really such a problem for some people, it does make me wonder how often they take the Resilient feat at 4th level? If you are a table that uses feats, shoring one of them up near the beginning of your career is an easy option... but how often does that happen? Does everybody instead just forsake it for boosting their ASI by 2 to get their prime modifier up by 1? Doesn't that just mean the player has chosen to boost offense over defense, and thus they must lie in the bed they have just made? Is it the game's responsibility to save the player from themself?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Personally, I really don't get so many people's aversion to magic in D&D?

I just get board with it... I have played and run games for players with magic casters more then not... and I find that magic trumping all makes less varriance. where in 2e we 'need someone to take it for the team and play the healer' in 3e and 5e I just see everyone play casters (sometimes refluffed as fighters)

Why getting your ass kicked by weapon-users and those that just target HP is somehow more acceptable than getting your ass kicked by powerful magic?

I mean... becuse I want to play weapon useres and feel like I have the options and powers similar to the spell throwers.

I'm sure you all have your reasons... but I personally don't get it. To me, losing a fight is losing a fight, whether it's by magic or by steel. It sucks either way.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean you can argue that having diffrent stats give you a chance to suprise someone... but odds are what every array you have (pre gen or rolled randomly) your top stat is going to your attack stat (str or dex for fighters) your second to con and you are prof in str and con.. so even let assume teh most lucky rolls and after race you get 18,17,15,15,13,12 and the stat bumps go for all 3 over the 11 levels so 20 18 16 16 14 12 and you put them in a slightly odd order

12 str 20 dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 wis 18 cha that still nets you (again with the magic cloak +1 eating an attunement slot) str +6 dex +7 con +8 Int +3 wis +4 cha +5 pretty amazing saves and against the 17 (still not giving that wizard the 18 you started with though, nor a magic item) you end up with str 50/50 dex 55/45 con 60/40 int 35/65 wis 40/60 cha 45/55

so targeting the warrior not in heavy armor in str, int or wis still isn't 50/50 and the cha (that you called out) just bearly better then it

I know. It's better than before, though. We also roll stats in order and swap one pair, so a fighter will have high strength or dex, but isn't guaranteed a high con. Intelligence or charisma might be his second highest. We've found that it makes for more interesting characters than using arrays or point buy to do it that way.

Now, I will say that the method we use is pick two stats to be 5d6-2L, two to be 4d6-L, and two to be 3d6 straight, so "dump" stats are the ones you roll 3d6 in, and the two you want highest get the 5d6-2L. It's not uncommon for those 3d6 stats to be higher than a 4d6 or even occasionally a 5d6 stat, though.

I also think it's okay to have some weak saves. They just need to be a bit better, which rolling tends to do.

 

[LordEntrails]

You have a flaw in your reasoning. 5E is not designed for PCs to fight NPCs that are of equal class level to them. Therefore NPC DCs do not scale the same as PC DCs.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I just get board with it... I have played and run games for players with magic casters more then not... and I find that magic trumping all makes less varriance. where in 2e we 'need someone to take it for the team and play the healer' in 3e and 5e I just see everyone play casters (sometimes refluffed as fighters)

I mean... becuse I want to play weapon useres and feel like I have the options and powers similar to the spell throwers.

I can kinda understand it I guess... but then again, if you are bored with magic users, I don't know how playing a martial character with the same options as magic-users is actually giving out variance?

The variance seems to me to be all different character classes doing all different things. If they all can do the same things, that's less variance, not more in my opinion.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If this is really such a problem for some people, it does make me wonder how often they take the Resilient feat at 4th level? If you are a table that uses feats, shoring one of them up near the beginning of your career is an easy option... but how often does that happen? Does everybody instead just forsake it for boosting their ASI by 2 to get their prime modifier up by 1? Doesn't that just mean the player has chosen to boost offense over defense, and thus they must lie in the bed they have just made? Is it the game's responsibility to save the player from themself?

lets look at replaceing 1 stat up with reselence and see if it really is the big help (maybe you are right)

lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)
a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1

lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0

over all my saves improved by 5, 4, 1,1 ,1 and 1

Okay so I have a 13 stat lets take resilient in that, and lower my prime stat to 18
this makes me 18 16 14 14 10 8 with saves of (again magics +1) to +9 +7 +4 +7 +1 +0 ( so in order 9 7 7 4 1 0)

now my best save went up by 4 4 4 3 1 1 against the DC going up by5 meaning you 'only' fall 1 behind on 3 fall 2 behind on 1 and 4 behind on the las two

now that caster only gets 2 increases... but that can bring them to a 20... lets not give them any magic ups though dc 8+5+4 DC 17 (now that is a good save DC)

so this doesn't seem to be much better... maybe if I put all 3 into it

+1 to my 16 doesn't change the mod but give me prof and +1 to the ten does the same but I loose the 18 prime stat

16 17 14 14 11 8 now gives +8 +8 +7 +7 +5 +0 so that reall eavens out the spread, but does it by taking the save that kept up and knocking it down... so I started at +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1 that means I got over the levels +3 +5 +4 +4 +4 +1 while the DC went up by 5 so 1 stat did still keep up (just not prime stat now) so with 3 feats invested that seems to more or less keep us even...

I just realized I stil have a +1 +1 stat line adjustment built in but I am not going back to redo it...