D&D 5E Heat Metal Spell. Unfair to Heavy Armor Wearers?

[Ruin Explorer]

Disadvantage on all attacks on an enemy warrior, plus 90ish damage over 10 rounds, is great value for a 2nd level spell, especially as you level up and the threat a low level spellcaster poses goes down. A CR 2 Druid has 11 AC and 27 hp, they're better off running and getting all that then sticking around and getting murked by any player who looks their way.

The big problem here is, the Druid that does that has essentially left his allies to do die. And they will die. The Druid's spell might eventually kill or do a lot of damage to the enemy Fighter or Paladin, but combat typically lasts three rounds.

So the enemies will all be dead by the end of round three, usually. And they'll die faster and easier without the Druid there to cast other spells or cause a distraction.

You have to find a situation where it makes sense, RP-wise, to have a Druid who runs and leaves his allies to die, too. As literally the first thing they do in the fight. To call that "corner-case" is generous. If you DM isn't a hardcore ambush-griefer like poor Mistwell is dealing with (and I do feel for him, that is excessive ambushing, I hope his party is built to deal with it), this might happen one session in one hundred. That's rarer than corner-case.

On top of all that, your DM has to change the statblock for the Druid to intentionally put in Heat Metal with the intention of using this quasi-exploit/abuse against his players. That speaks poorly of the DM who does it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This relies on a giant pile of assumptions. Firstly that the encounter is at at least 60',

I am 100% of the belief this spell is trouble... but I gotta agree here. I have a few times (mostly when ToM) seen some long range fights I can't imagine that enough fights get played past what a normal battle mat could be put on a table...60ft is 12 squires so I can see that... but 18 squires (90ft) is starting to strech my imagination... and over 100ft I just can't believe.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

without a save

I am suprised this isn't more of the topic... if this was even just save end of every round to end I would think it better... if you ALSO got a save or nothing or maybe just half initial damage it would be in line for what I think a 2nd level spell should be (maybe I could see an argument to up the damage to 3dice if the 1st save was for half damage no ongoing)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I am suprised this isn't more of the topic... if this was even just save end of every round to end I would think it better... if you ALSO got a save or nothing or maybe just half initial damage it would be in line for what I think a 2nd level spell should be (maybe I could see an argument to up the damage to 3dice if the 1st save was for half damage no ongoing)

The issue is that it's very rare to have a situation where it makes sense to use already. Making it save every round to end would mean it was so bad literally no PC in their right mind would ever memorize it again, because what are the odds you even get any damage out of it? It's a Concentration spell, remember, so it's competition with Bless, summon spells, and so on. Putting Bless on 4 PCs is likely to be a way better use of Concentration in literally 99.9% of encounters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So just seeing it as "limited counterplay" is misunderstanding the situation, imho. Because whoever casts it and runs is doing NOTHING else for the rest of the encounter. They're just a 2d8/round Fire damage DoT on one enemy.

yah running away is a bit of a corner case... but caster PC or NPC being able to put meat shields between them and the target seems more likely... and that adds some damage spells or heals (or both) still castable...

infact an NPC/Monster druid with some healing and a damage cantrip that can pick entangle or heat metal and when one goes down drop the other is pretty deadly.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The issue is that it's very rare to have a situation where it makes sense to use already. Making it save every round to end would mean it was so bad literally no PC in their right mind would ever memorize it again, because what are the odds you even get any damage out of it? It's a Concentration spell, remember, so it's competition with Bless, summon spells, and so on. Putting Bless on 4 PCs is likely to be a way better use of Concentration in literally 99.9% of encounters.

there has to be something between "Damage AND Disadvantage no save" and "Not worth prep/casting"

 

[Ruin Explorer]

yah running away is a bit of a corner case... but caster PC or NPC being able to put meat shields between them and the target seems more likely... and that adds some damage spells or heals (or both) still castable...

infact an NPC/Monster druid with some healing and a damage cantrip that can pick entangle or heat metal and when one goes down drop the other is pretty deadly.

It's just not "pretty deadly" though.

How long do you think combats last? They usually last 3 rounds. Unless drop Heat Metal immediately, you're not likely to get many ticks of it out, are you?

And in my experience, all PCs, with no exceptions, have ranged attacks. All Fighters, Rogues, Wizards, Clerics etc. have either thrown weapons, bows/crossbows, or cantrips. And the very SECOND Heat Metal gets cast (and I have had NPCs cast it), they instantly focus their attacks on the caster, until the caster is either dead or loses Concentration.

But meat shields is the intended usage, I agree.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

The big problem here is, the Druid that does that has essentially left his allies to do die. And they will die. The Druid's spell might eventually kill or do a lot of damage to the enemy Fighter or Paladin, but combat typically lasts three rounds.

So the enemies will all be dead by the end of round three, usually. And they'll die faster and easier without the Druid there to cast other spells or cause a distraction.

You have to find a situation where it makes sense, RP-wise, to have a Druid who runs and leaves his allies to die, too. As literally the first thing they do in the fight. To call that "corner-case" is generous. If you DM isn't a hardcore ambush-griefer like poor Mistwell is dealing with (and I do feel for him, that is excessive ambushing, I hope his party is built to deal with it), this might happen one session in one hundred. That's rarer than corner-case.

On top of all that, your DM has to change the statblock for the Druid to intentionally put in Heat Metal with the intention of using this quasi-exploit/abuse against his players. That speaks poorly of the DM who does it.

With such a powerful effect, the Druid's allies should just retreat as well if they don't feel like they'll win the fight, then they can just all come back when the armored guy finished boiling. It's powerful enough to shape how a group fights, a PC won't have 90 HP until late tier 2.

Druids can change their spells every day, it's kinda one of their things, and the Monster Manual even says you can change the spells without affecting the CR of an NPC (which is a blatant lie, but it's what they're saying to all DMs out there). I wouldn't DM it like this, but I also wouldn't abuse the other ridiculously overpowered spells in the game either, but that doesn't change that's what they are, at least most are high level so it's easier to ignore.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

there has to be something between "Damage AND Disadvantage no save" and "Not worth prep/casting"

Sure, I'd drop the Disadvantage if I was designing the spell (or make it only apply to hand-held things). I also might actively call out the water counterplay.

But the spell has a core problem which cannot be worked around - it's Heat Metal - and in most campaigns, relatively few serious enemies wear metal armour. I mean, not none, but the vast majority of enemies are going to be naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaked (please imagine this being said the way Heffer from Rocko's Modern Life used to say it - but dragons don't wear pants!), followed by people in robes/leather/non-metal armour, with those in Heavy metal armour being, well, not common.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

With such a powerful effect, the Druid's allies should just retreat as well if they don't feel like they'll win the fight, then they can just all come back when the armored guy finished boiling. It's powerful enough to shape how a group fights, a PC won't have 90 HP until late tier 2.

Druids can change their spells every day, it's kinda one of their things, and the Monster Manual even says you can change the spells without affecting the CR of an NPC (which is a blatant lie, but it's what they're saying to all DMs out there). I wouldn't DM it like this, but I also wouldn't abuse the other ridiculously overpowered spells in the game either, but that doesn't change that's what they are, at least most are high level so it's easier to ignore.

So this is shenanigans in my view.

"They should just retreat" is like someone saying "I would simply decide to take no damage". It's complete fantasy. D&D 5E does NOT let you retreat easily or well - you get slaughtered if you attempt to retreat, both PCs and NPCs.

As I said, if a DM chooses to abuse/exploit this, that's on them. They probably do other pretty awful stuff. In a way it's helpful, because this would be a great illustration that this was a cheapass "killer DM" and you probably shouldn't play with them. Why play with people who are there to grief (players or DMs)?.