D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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Looks like it's archived here There's quite the undercurrent of distrust of the GM having any power in it & 5e ensures that the players don't need anything from the gm in so many ways that you can really see the results.

Well, you have to remember when he coined the term, and (despite the vitriol later directed at him by people because he was part of the 5e team) he was part of the 4e team- which (while doing it differently than 3e) was certainly more in the direction of rules as opposed to rulings.
 

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Well, you have to remember when he coined the term, and (despite the vitriol later directed at him) he was part of the 4e team- which (while doing it differently than 3e) was certainly more in the direction of rules as opposed to rulings.
I skipped out on that whole era so the nuance there is lost on me.

edit: I don't have any strong feelings for or against him.
 

I don't think further elaboration is fruitful.

You agree that the phrase has a negative connotation.

There have bene repeated posts from multiple people the first page until my series of posts explaining to you, ad nauseum, that this is a term that people who engage in a playing style do not use to describe the style that they are using. Instead, it is used by people who are disparaging it.

And your reaction is, despite being told this is ... roughly, "Okay. I already said it was a negative phrase. And I see that people don't like it being used to describe them. But hey, I'm going to keep using it ... and I'm going to say it's unfair for people to complain about us using it to describe them! Do you know who the real ra..." Ahem.

I really don't think you want to do that.

Yeah I doubt it is. After all, you're ascribing negative intent to folks describing situations and instead inferring that they are describing people. So yeah, it does not seem that a good faith discussion can be had here. The fundamental idea that it is describing a style of play, rather than the ad nauseum examples of specific situations presented since page 1, is in and of itself an insulting strawman. To then conflate the use of the term to the use of... yeah, I'll leave it at that, not a good look.
 

Mod Note:
Folks,

Maybe people have lost sight of the thread's original purpose: "how do you define “mother may I” style play"

Not, "What is the objective or broadly accepted definition?" The thread accepts that definitions of this are not consistent across all gamers.

Ergo, one person's answer does not need to be consistent with other's use. Nor does the thread invite you to argue or otherwise get anyone to join a consensus or adopt anyone else's usage. So please don't continue to browbeat others into a particular definition.

Thanks, all.
 

I skipped out on that whole era so the nuance there is lost on me.

Well, overly simplified (super overly simplified) this was written in 2005, before he was hired at WoTC. In this piece, you can already see some of the theoretical ideas behind 4e developing; famously, he began putting some of the 4e design ideas they were working on into Book of Nine Swords.*

Fundamentally, however, this concept that he first wrote about was later picked up by others and became the skeleton-work for the general concept of "Rules, Not Rulings." (To borrow a term). In essence, he is making the claim that "3e is so popular precisely because it is the one commercial game that seeks to bridge the power gap between the DM and the players ..."**

Which gets back to the original point- it's a pejorative term related to the allocation of authority; pointing out that it's pejorative and always has been (in order to argue for a particular playing style) started from the very first usage.



*Which is why I always find it interesting that people claim that 4e was such a surprise; it was really an evolution from late-period 3.5e.

**That's why I made the whole "irony alert," because there are a fair number of people who post here who blame Mearls w/r/t the demise of 4e and/or the "Rulings, Not Rule" aspects of 5e. Which ...
 

That's the primary problem with ad hoc systems. It forces the DM to play amateur game designer, on the spot, with virtually no guidance. And, IME, it results in never actually getting any sort of benefit from doing something creative. At best, it's a wash and most of the time, you're worse off than if you had just done a normal attack.

And this applies to virtually all aspects of the game.

Yep. People are citing examples of adversarial or jerk DMs but it doesn't have to be the case.

Take the "sneak into the fortress throne room without being detected" scenerio. How many checks does it take to complete?

This is an example of DM decides and can easily end up as very hard for the party despite them having good abilities as the DM decides to call for a lot of checks with 1 failure means being spotted thinking this is still a good chance of success.

Another time maybe it's only 1 or 2 checks. If this contruct in the DMs mind does not sink with the contruct in the players mind it starts to feel like "Mother may I?"
 

As someone who has only followed this thread in a cursory manner, I am frankly a bit confused by this term "mother may I" - both what it means and why it is even used, or useful, at all. For me, D&D has always followed a similar pattern:

A PC can do anything they want to do, as subject to their statistics, the rules, and DM's discretion. If a PC wants to do something that is not clearly defined on their character sheet, they tell the DM what they want to do and the DM offers a ruling, based upon their best judgment.

How often this occurs really depends upon a lot of factors, but mostly the personality of the individual player and how much they like to play "outside the box" of clearly defined rules and stats. I've had players who never do anything that isn't clearly defined on their character sheet, and players who constantly come up with all kinds crazy ideas that are generally entertaining for everyone at the table.

"Mother may I" just seems to be a really weird characterization for that gap between clearly defined rules (and the character sheet) and the DM's adjudication - a term that doesn't really seem to need to exist, because it describes an element of the game that is, well, just an organic part of the game.

A PC can try to do whatever they want to, but it still comes down to a ruling at the DM's discretion. This is D&D 101, no? I understand that different groups hew more or less closely to the RAW and there's no one right way to do things. But I've never been in a group in which PCs couldn't improvise or do things that weren't clearly defined on the character sheet.

As a DM I've always encouraged improvisation. Actually, at one point during the 4E era, I found that due to the AEDI paradigm, players rarely improvised outside of what powers they had so I created a house rule that tried to encourage improvisation.

A lot of this comes down to trust and mutual respect: Trust in the DM's adjudication and, yes, ultimate authority; but also mutual respect - including the DM respecting the desires of players. Some people seem to take issue with that basic element of D&D, that the DM holds ultimate authority. I realize that some games take a co-DMing or more collaborative approach, but my point is that MMI is a completely useless term in a game in which the basic assumption is that the DM runs the world and where the buck ultimately stops. Meaning, unless you're playing a fully and equally collaborative approach, the buck still eventually stops with the DM and their best judgment.

That premise is baked into the very fabric of the game; again, there are variations, but they're just that: variations. The term MMI seems based upon a complaint about that basic approach, as if the players should be able to over-rule the DM's authority, or worse, implies that DMs are generally--or at least frequently--untrustworthy, and the players need to be protected from them by...rules? And if that is the case, I think there are much larger problems to deal with, because if nothing else, the social contract of a D&D game requires basic trust and mutual respect.
 
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"Mother may I" just seems to be a really weird characterization for that gap between clearly defined rules (and the character sheet) and the DM's adjudication - a term that doesn't really seem to need to exist, because it describes an element of the game that is, well, just an organic part of the game.

It's a term that describes a negative experience when the DM's adjuducation seems arbitrary or disconnected from what the player perceives as the shared universe. It often is a result of jerk DMs but can also result from honest DMing that doesn't have a good grasp of underlying math, description signaling, has a different mental model of difficulty, etc. So the player is left asking for permission until something works. This is a real negative thing so I don't mind the term for this.

It also sometimes used as a negative term to describe games that don't have concrete conflict resolution systems and rely heavily on DM adjucation. This 2nd usage I disagree with. When used on the system level we should use a more neutral term. Non combat 5e boils down to 'DM arbitrates' in terms of resolution, wheras 4e skill challenges is a mechanism that is much less DM arbitrates (closer to the way DMs participate in 5e combat).

But I wouldn't say 5e is automatically "mother may I" as long as players and DM are on the same page of what could work or not and roughly how difficult it is to do things. But since it relies heavily on DM arbitration, it is probably easier to get stuck in a mother may I situation than some other games.
 

Yep. People are citing examples of adversarial or jerk DMs but it doesn't have to be the case.

Take the "sneak into the fortress throne room without being detected" scenerio. How many checks does it take to complete?

This is an example of DM decides and can easily end up as very hard for the party despite them having good abilities as the DM decides to call for a lot of checks with 1 failure means being spotted thinking this is still a good chance of success.

Another time maybe it's only 1 or 2 checks. If this contruct in the DMs mind does not sink with the contruct in the players mind it starts to feel like "Mother may I?"
Sneak into the throne room of the fortress... without being detected. Since I run similar scenarios from time to time it might go like this
  • scout a good entrance
  • Approach the good entrance on the fortress
  • Interact with the entrance in some form
  • Interact with (easier) or dodge (harder) any sort of patrols or similar to find the high security area (throne room)
  • Distract interact with disable dodge or murder any relevant guards
  • Possibly interact with the entrance to the high security area.
Players needed to enter Saidan Boromar's home to obtain something from a safe in a extradimensionally hidden subbasement. I forget what specifically but the players were told that an upcoming party he was throwing for the family was their best opportunity by the npc who hired them
  • Players went to the street where he lived in order to see the home,
    • difficulty: serious security, serious walls, guards out front, guards probably inside, opem secret of police on the take in his pocket
  • Players went out to buy penguin suits suitable for wait staff & similar
    • Difficulty: like 15gp each if I remember fine clothes pricing right
  • Players suggest trying to get hired as waiters at a boromar controlled/friendly catering company
    • Difficulty : easy enough to find & even get hired but the party wants to ensure they get sent to the big guy's party they heard about coting hopes of kicking their career into gear.
    • Catering company boss can do that but wants them to hunt down winterwolves hellhounds & a treant to really smoke rare meats for the party & show off his own resourcefulness to the big boss. Players are at a level where that was reasonable &? there was like a month or so till the party iirc
  • Players take a company chartered sky coach to the party & walk in through the staff entrance without so much as a second glance thanks to being dressed in tuxedos rather than dressed for war.
    • Difficulty: Those may have been the ex act words I used if you substitute "players" for "you" or something
  • Players mingle about the party serving drinks/hors d'oeuvres getting roped into conversations & party games with very powerful people plus forced to mediate/disentangle themselves from ruffled feathers & squabbles between party goers to avoid a scene that might put security on higher alert
    • Difficulty: Varies & ranges from trivial to extreme but requires creativity & social skills This keeps up until the party has found an entrance to the subbasement
  • Unfortunately the entrance requires an arcane mark token similar to how we use rfid cards on some internal company doors. Pl;ayers need to find one because tinkering with the ward would be noticed!
    • Difficulty: Insight checks suggest high ranking guards, boromar himself, & maybe in boromar's personal room upstairs
  • Boromar's wife was in the room!... oops.... she's upset at being intruded upon & asking why she shouldn't call the guards
    • Difficulty: moderate, I'm super curious to find out at this point! Player tells her they were sent by the kitchen to find out if she wants her usual stiff drink or tea but brought this tray of hors d'oeuvres for her in the mean time.
  • Players toddle off to the kitchen & use herbalism/medicine to make her "usual"
    • Difficulty: very low to make a drink that will put her out
  • Players return with a warforged grade(poison immune or something iirc) drink that is not at all her usual but they told her the bartender is out of too many bottles from the party after [name]* finished it off & she's out like a light very quick after downing the drink said by the bartender to be refreshing in all the right ways for her
    • Players take her token
  • Players use the token to enter the subbasement. I believe there was a fight or two, a prisoner to interact with, & this safe..
The key is that they did it piece by piece rather than wanting to make a DC9000 stealth check to do the whole thing with one skill from one player all at once. The entire thing was really only possible because I run a game that is apparently arbitrary & capricious "mother may I" gameplay secretly supported on the GM side using a mix of Fate & 3.x style bonus types/gm's best friend on the GM side to heavily support 5e's void of rules that would otherwise help. No that wasn't a railroad, almost all of it beyond a few rooms & couple NPCs was a ship on a course devised by the players themselves

Did they succeed on all of those things?... no not even most of them, but the important part is that they found solutions to handle their failures

*one of the NPCs downstairs who could have caused a scene from drinking too much
 


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