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D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Because I don't withhold obvious information when I DM? And because the guys I play with don't either?

What do you tell your players if they ask whether a creature looks muscular, or if it is moving in a lumbering manner? That their characters are unable to observe readily apparent phenomena?

I guess add that one to the don't list @Gammadoodler :

Don't give your players obvious and relevant information that their characters need to make informed decisions about the world.

Take the example of the Lich upthread: what visual/behavioral cue tips you off to not go for a Con save?

Or dragons: if you haven't read the MM, what clue would suggest they are weaker at one save than another?

I agree that low-level monsters tend to broadcast their strengths and weaknesses, but we're talking about Tier IV, when Wizards are supposedly so much better than Fighters. And I don't think demigod-like abyssals and aberrations and other exotic adversaries are going to broadcast their weaknesses. That frail old crone might have a Strength of 22. That shambling pile of rocks might be a high-level caster (or caster equivalent...they aren't actually casters anymore, right?). That unwieldy blob of goo might have lightning fast reflexes.

After a few rounds of combat, sure, maybe some of these things become more apparent.

And I think DMs should be trying to challenge players at that stage in the game by creating adversaries with non-obvious weaknesses. I don't think anybody would disagree that it's not just fair, but fun and part of the game, to create terrain that challenges the melee types to do something other than close and stab, and prevents the archers from hiding between easy shots. A similar thing should be done for the casters. You don't need to withhold "obvious and relevant information", you just have to make the relevant information non-obvious. That doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be completely opaque, or a 1/6 chance of getting it right. But 90%? That's just handing casters an unnecessary gift.
 

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Take the example of the Lich upthread: what visual/behavioral cue tips you off to not go for a Con save?

Or dragons: if you haven't read the MM, what clue would suggest they are weaker at one save than another?

I agree that low-level monsters tend to broadcast their strengths and weaknesses, but we're talking about Tier IV, when Wizards are supposedly so much better than Fighters. And I don't think demigod-like abyssals and aberrations and other exotic adversaries are going to broadcast their weaknesses. That frail old crone might have a Strength of 22. That shambling pile of rocks might be a high-level caster (or caster equivalent...they aren't actually casters anymore, right?). That unwieldy blob of goo might have lightning fast reflexes.
Buffy the vampire slayer and similar use books (or her wizard analog does) ... the idea of Wizards researching the big bads is just spot on flavor wise and don't blindly rush at them. The idea that combats should all be surprises and that it is a pure guessing game does not seem to conform to tons of fiction or that nobody knows vulnerabilities and abilities is often contrary to the fiction. Beowulf sacrificing his thanes to find out is I suppose an extreme form of martial research.
 
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Beowulf sacrificing his thanes to find out is I suppose an extreme form of martial research.

A particularly flavorful example.

Yes, research beforehand should be rewarded. Or using a round to make an Int check. Or burn a low level spell slot to see what happens (less useful if the DM doesn’t roll in the open, or if the roll is very high or very low.)

But just waltz in and look at a monster and say, “Oh, right, I’ll use Cha.”? Anybody enabling that shouldn’t be complaining about Wizards.
 


Take the example of the Lich upthread: what visual/behavioral cue tips you off to not go for a Con save?

Or dragons: if you haven't read the MM, what clue would suggest they are weaker at one save than another?

I agree that low-level monsters tend to broadcast their strengths and weaknesses, but we're talking about Tier IV, when Wizards are supposedly so much better than Fighters. And I don't think demigod-like abyssals and aberrations and other exotic adversaries are going to broadcast their weaknesses. That frail old crone might have a Strength of 22. That shambling pile of rocks might be a high-level caster (or caster equivalent...they aren't actually casters anymore, right?). That unwieldy blob of goo might have lightning fast reflexes.

After a few rounds of combat, sure, maybe some of these things become more apparent.

And I think DMs should be trying to challenge players at that stage in the game by creating adversaries with non-obvious weaknesses. I don't think anybody would disagree that it's not just fair, but fun and part of the game, to create terrain that challenges the melee types to do something other than close and stab, and prevents the archers from hiding between easy shots. A similar thing should be done for the casters. You don't need to withhold "obvious and relevant information", you just have to make the relevant information non-obvious. That doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be completely opaque, or a 1/6 chance of getting it right. But 90%? That's just handing casters an unnecessary gift.
As I said upthread, if you're facing a lich and you have the option you don't target any save. You just make sure to counterspell.

Dragons obviously have high strength and constitution. Their accumen is also called out in stories, therefore you can expect them to have high mental stats. Therefore, Dexterity.

Have you actually run a high level 5e campaign? I've run several, and played in a few as well. And, this being D&D, there's a lot of combat. Sure, the players will probably face a higher percentage of one-off unique creatures at levels 11+ than before, but there will still be plenty of non-unique creatures that they face multiples of multiple times.

Sure, I can put a belt of storm giant strength on a powerful kobold mage and trick the players. Once. Otherwise they're going to be awash in belts of storm giant strength and that would take the game in the direction of absurdity.

Most of the time, even at high level, they're going to be facing non-unique foes. Let's say I'm running an against the giants style adventure and the players are invading the fortress of a power hungry fire giant earl. Right off the bat the players can probably guess that they shouldn't target strength or constitution, and not to use fire. So, dexterity or a mental stat. And cracking open my MM, would you know it? Dex +3, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +1. Dexterity is higher than I expected, but against a save DC between 17 to the low 20s, any given fire giant has the odds stacked against them making that save. And that's assuming you're not using abilities that can further stack the odds in your favor like Portent and Silvery Barbs.

And if you're really unsure, or think it has all good saves, you still have the option to either use a spell with an attack roll (thanks to spell attacks, wizards are no worse than the average fighter in this department), buff your allies, or use a spell that doesn't allow saves (Forcecage, Reverse Gravity, etc).
 

I would say it depends on the save.

Intelligence is probably 9 out of 10.
At the other extreme, wisdom there is no way to know reliably at all. So there it is 5 out of 10.

Most of the others are in between those.
You can infer about wisdom based on what you know about intelligence and charisma. Animals, for example have a low intelligence but average to good wisdom. Particularly if you suspect the creature has low intelligence, but it is able to utilize basic tactics (wolves using their pack tactics to focus fire) you can make an educated guess that their wisdom is decent. If they just charge in without any tactical consideration whatsoever, it's a pretty good bet that they have below average intelligence and wisdom.

Admittedly, this does require a DM who has creatures employ tactics appropriate to their metal stats, so it might belong in the DO column.
 

As I said upthread, if you're facing a lich and you have the option you don't target any save. You just make sure to counterspell.

Sure, if you know what you are facing is something called a “lich”, and you have a sense for what it’s strengths are. Maybe by the 2nd round you’ll catch on. Then again, it’s not clear that all of its abilities even count as spells anymore, when they are it can counterspell your counterspell, and if it can cast as a legendary action you’re hosed anyway.

I dunno, maybe we just have a different sense for and experience of how much mystery and surprise is fun. Both as player and DM I like games where the players are saying “Holy $&#% WTF is that!?!?!” and feeling it, not just RPing their character while they are actually thinking, “Ah, yes, an X. It’s CR 15 and is immune to…”. My goal is to give veteran players that same magical experience that first time players have.

In other words, my trolls aren’t necessarily vulnerable to fire.
 

Oh, also, saves are comprised of both ability score and proficiency. They don’t always line up.

Think of it from the monster’s point of view: there’s an elf with a bow sniping at you. What save do you target? Probably not Dex, but other than that is it a Rogue, a Ranger, a Fighter, or a Monk?
 
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Sure, if you know what you are facing is something called a “lich”, and you have a sense for what it’s strengths are. Maybe by the 2nd round you’ll catch on. Then again, it’s not clear that all of its abilities even count as spells anymore, when they are it can counterspell your counterspell, and if it can cast as a legendary action you’re hosed anyway.

I dunno, maybe we just have a different sense for and experience of how much mystery and surprise is fun. Both as player and DM I like games where the players are saying “Holy $&#% WTF is that!?!?!” and feeling it, not just RPing their character while they are actually thinking, “Ah, yes, an X. It’s CR 15 and is immune to…”. My goal is to give veteran players that same magical experience that first time players have.

In other words, my trolls aren’t necessarily vulnerable to fire.
And that's fine. But does every troll in your game have a random vulnerability, or do the players know what their vulnerability is after figuring it out, and can rely upon that knowledge in the future? Or is it that the trolls show up once, the players figure it out, and then these kinds of trolls are never again seen in your campaigns?

Unless I feel an urgent need to nova because I'm convinced that the encounter has a high likelihood of TPK, I don't even like to use my big guns until round 2. My DMs like to pull tricks like having enemies that are hidden, burrowed underground, or on the other side of a secret door (or wall, in the case of wraiths). I frequently don't even know what we're facing until round 2.

Besides, holding off for at least a round gives the martials in the party a sense of purpose, and lets the DM feel like he's providing a challenge.
 

Oh, also, saves are comprised of both ability score and proficiency. They don’t always line up.

Think of it from the monster’s point of view: there’s an elf with a bow sniping at you. What save do you target? Probably not Dex, but other than that is it a Rogue, a Ranger, a Fighter, or a Monk?
Sure, Fire Giants have a poor Dexterity but a mind blowing +3 Dex save thanks to proficiency. They're still probably going to fail against a DC of 17-22, so I'm not exactly going to worry about it. That's like fretting that the monster will roll a natural 20 on it's save (we play that that's an automatic success).
 

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