D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[GMforPowergamers]

Probably because it's not all that imbalanced. As the "Are wizards really all that?" thread shows, the vast majority of the imbalance is the fault of DMs who mismanage wizard spells and the daily encounter balance.

when in that thread was ANY consensus reached let alone that one?

 

[Undrave]

back in the day (at least 2e but most likely pre 2e) there was a power fantasy of the 'smart knowledge obsessed guys being better then physical guys'

Deeply rooted in the old Nerd VS Jock dichotomy so prevalent in the 80s. I think this fantasy is still super popular with the Wizard players.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Whether they prefer it to be super imbalanced or don't care and allow it to be imbalanced, it stills falls under "It's the DM's fault."

At the super high levels the 9th level spells are where the wizard starts to pull away, and really only Wish is totally beyond the pale. They've made Wish so that if you use it to that level, there's a 50/50 chance that you can never use it again, so I've never actually seen it used that way. People don't want to lose the ability to cast it.

what non caster ability is equal to a 5th level spell

 

[Krachek]

Need another choice :
imbalance between the classes is created by table play style

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Define "balance".

Because something like DPR or even a broader "combat effectiveness" only addresses 1 of the 3 pillars of RPGs. Besides, I worry more about "fun" than "balance".

my balance issue is that a wizard can do 75-80% the damage, take 66-75% the attacks a fighter can without using all of it's resources... in fact less then half there resources last time I did the math... so if you plan on a combat day you can be almost as good as a fighter at combat, but in a non combat day the fighter is stuck without being able to switch to noncombat abilities.

The fighter, the rogue and the paliden (at least pre crit change) can all out damage the wizard, the cleric and the druid... but not by much.

the Bard the cleric and the warlock (and with bladesinger even the wizard) can with a bit of build keep up with the fighter blow for blow until level 11... AND STILL BE A FULL CASTER ON TOP.

The sword/valor Bard and Hexblade are the most proud of the proud nail casters... you can wear medium armor, have 1hp per level less then the fighter (2 at 1st) still use martial weapons, still get 2 attacks, and get a boat load of class and subclasss features... to the point where the Middle Earth book literally just took spells away from the bard, and it was balanced as is with fighter

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There are just too many factors to take into consideration, too many ways of looking at "balance". I find all of the different classes I've had a chance to play enjoyable. Are the people at the table enjoying themselves and having fun? Is there enough variety to satisfy different styles of play, while allowing for variety? Nothing is ever going to be perfect but I think the answer is yes.

4e would beg to differ

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sooo… don’t let the optimizers play Wizard?

so if the same player with the same out of game skill mastery of the system sits to play a game as a fighter then the next campaign a druid we should tell him "NO, you have to only be fighters!"?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Need another choice :
imbalance between the classes is created by table play style

i love this argument... my group makes house rules like crazy to nerf casters and boost non casters... yet when I complain about imbalance you get people pretending like I let wizards know 9th level spells at 3rd level.

 

[CleverNickName]

My vote would be "Any perceived imbalances between the classes in 5E is caused by the humans at the table, and not the rules system."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My vote would be "Any perceived imbalances between the classes in 5E is caused by the humans at the table, and not the rules system."

so how do you handle people who like conceptually fighter, in 2e and 4e loved and played fighters (and warlords) but in 3e and 5e find the power and customization so lop sided they feel they CAN'T play one without heavy house rules? Same people, same basic game, but in 2 editions lots of weapon warriors and in 2 editions next to none?