D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[GMforPowergamers]

None. That's why it shows that it's their fault.

no it shows that we can't agree on who's fault it is

That's what their posts demonstrate. They rely on the ability to cast dozens of different spells over a 1 hour period that include several concentration spells that all last their full duration.

nope not even once was that what was needed

And that all 6-8 encounter happen in under an hour. And that you can explore an entire dungeon in 10 minutes. It complete relies on the DM being at fault.

BULL naughty word

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Action Surge(a whole new action). Combat Maneuvers(7 choices of effects plus extra damage). Relentless(regenerating superiority dice). Extra attack 3(and maybe 2). Hold the line. Vigilant Defender. Strength Before Death. Fighting Spirit(at 10th level+).

not one equal to raise the dead

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The list is over in the other thread, but the sheer number of spells being cast in all pillars is staggering. As are the number of concentration spells cast in a short period of time(to fit all the different needs), yet all go max duration.

nope we point out many OPTIONS, but you don't need many of them especially not all of them

It was Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Friends, Booming Blade(bladedancer subclass), Protection from Evil and Good, Shield, Haste, Arcane Eye, Knock, Find traps, Gift of Alacrity, Disguise Self, Invisibility, Darkness, Charm Monster, and Suggestion. This was at 8th level and was supposedly able to let the wizard simultaneously be better than a 8th level rogue in all 3 pillars with 6-8 encounters. All in under an hour.

lol none of that needs to 'cast all in an hour'

 

[Art Waring]

Yeah, absolutely.

Like I said, I have limited time for these sorts of analyses / discussions these days, but I encourage you to revise my work and post your numbers!

It's easy for us to misremember details or speak about anecdotes, which are still valuable, but in trying to triangulate some kind of objective insight into design intent? It's helpful to have a shared reality of what the actual numbers mean.

Absolutely agree, that's why fireball is a problem, because its damage potential is truly quadratic depending on the combat circumstances.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Remove skills from full casters

that is an option... don't let full casters have skills, and give all non casters +2 to all non combat stats and you MAY have something there

 

[Maxperson]

not one equal to raise the dead

I disagree. All that extra damage often keeps other PCs from dying in the first place. Not only is it better, but it saves on diamonds.

 

[Maxperson]

nope we point out many OPTIONS, but you don't need many of them especially not all of them

You do if you want to beat the rogue in all 3 pillars which was the challenge. And you need far more slots than you have.

lol none of that needs to 'cast all in an hour'

You didn't read his posts, did you? He is relying on the entire adventuring/exploring day being done in less than an hour(he said so at least a half dozen times), so all those spells DO need to be cast in that time period.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

this entire part will be discredited as cherry picking and white room... but sure I'm game.

5th level with a with an 18 int (I will be taking a 14 and 13 as well)

2 builds:

Spoiler: Diviner

a 5th level diviner gets a spell book of 14 spells only 2 can be 3rd level and 4 2nd level the other 8 have to be first level. I will take a 14 con and a 13 dex (I mean it might make more sense to have higher AC, but if I get hit I want a good con save)
spellbook: 3rd level clairvoyance, fireball 2nd level Hold person, crown of madness, misty step, rope trick, 1st level charm person, comprehend lang, detect magic, find familiar, mage armor, magic missile, shield, tasha laugh, identify

cantrips known: Minor illusion, Mold earth, prestidigitation, chill touch
spells preped: charm person, mage armor, magic missile, shield, tasha, misty step, rope trick, hold person, fireball

pre cast: find familiar (owl) and mage armor
rituals: comprehend lang, detect magic, identify

Spoiler: bladesinger

a 5th level bladesinger is ALMOST a 5th level fighter without action surge (they don't get that extra attack till next level though) but lets go... useing a rapier (refluff as an elven sword) wearing studded leather and will take the 14 dex and 13 con.
spellbook: 3rd level Haste, Counterspell 2nd level Hold person, misty step, rope trick, ray of enfeeblement 1st level charm person, comprehend lang, detect magic, find familiar, magic missile, shield, tasha laugh, thunder wave identify

cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Minor illusion, shape water
spells preped: Haste, Counterspell, Hold person, Misty Step, Rope trick, Ray of enfeeblement, shield, Thunderwave

pre cast: find familiar (Raven)
rituals: comprehend lang, detect magic, identify

No I am not trying to discredit per se but to understand.

Mold earth and shape water and bladesinger are not in the PHB. So I think that is worth
Mentioning when we talk about the game.

The list you provide does not look far off in many respects from what my pal seems to be running save bladesinger and mold earth/shape water.

We are only level 6 and now 7.

He was not overpowering anything as diviner but was a good force multiplier. He did complain though that fights were over too quickly to do what he wanted. He was also careful with his familiar and dismissed it at times prematurely to keep it around.

Anyway, interesting for me to chew on and consider. Thanks.

 

[Haplo781]

that is an option... don't let full casters have skills, and give all non casters +2 to all non combat stats and you MAY have something there

I mean why does the guy who can cast knock and prestidigitation need sleight of hand?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No I am not trying to discredit per se but to understand.

Mold earth and shape water and bladesinger are not in the PHB. So I think that is worth
Mentioning when we talk about the game.

opps I knew bladesinger wasn't I don't remember I tried my best ( I used both diviner and bladesinger though)

The list you provide does not look far off in many respects from what my pal seems to be running save bladesinger and mold earth/shape water.

We are only level 6 and now 7.

He was not overpowering anything as diviner but was a good force multiplier. He did complain though that fights were over too quickly to do what he wanted. He was also careful with his familiar and dismissed it at times prematurely to keep it around.

Anyway, interesting for me to chew on and consider. Thanks.