D&D General an observed and slightly different alignment problem

[Mind of tempest]

why is the order axis so odd, order is not the antithesis of chaos order at its most extreme is stasis nothing changing thus cosmological stasis versus cosmological chaos would be interesting.

also why is order clockwork cyborg minions? and why is chaos scary toads?

 

[Hriston]

The LN and CN planes should be the abodes of the Lords of Law and the Lords of Chaos from the Elric series respectively.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Scary toads dont make much sense. They tried to give them some weird reproduction mechanism to make them more ''chaotic'' but they still feel pretty uninspired and tacked-on.

For some time, I've felt that the CN plane would be best to be left to the uncaring, unfathomable aberrations of the Far Realm of Limbo, the ultimate battle ground of Gith vs Flayers, herds of gibbering mouthers flying across the skies, pocket planes shaped by the mad dreams of beholders, flesh warping living stars resting their unblinking eyes on their spawns, whispering to mortal warlocks about the mysteries of the past-yet-future of civilizations from beyond the Wheel.

As for the LN plane, if feel the theme of Bytopia (?), the mirror realm would fit better than the mechanical modrons. I prefer modrons to be more like ever-marching repair bots, fixing any plane when it's inerrant purpose was somehow broken.

 

[tetrasodium]

why is the order axis so odd, order is not the antithesis of chaos order at its most extreme is stasis nothing changing thus cosmological stasis versus cosmological chaos would be interesting.

also why is order clockwork cyborg minions? and why is chaos scary toads?

I might be wrong but I think I've read thstgood/evil & law/chaos were just two different two axis frome team/bad guy termsfrom appendix N books that at some point was squished into one four axis thing.

 

[Yaarel]

why is the order axis so odd, order is not the antithesis of chaos order at its most extreme is stasis nothing changing thus cosmological stasis versus cosmological chaos would be interesting.

also why is order clockwork cyborg minions? and why is chaos scary toads?

Mathematical chaos/order is a different category from human chaos/order.

Mathematically, the random energy of the sun is chaos and the stasis of heat death is order. Life is somewhere between the extremes.

This math has nothing to do with human alignments.

For humans, order is a world that makes sense − and everyone collectively conforming to this particular way of making sense. Chaos is individualism, where each person decides what makes sense for oneself, and others may or may not understand it.

 

[Umbran]

Mathematical chaos/order is a different category from human chaos/order.

Mathematically, the random energy of the sun is chaos and the stasis of heat death is order. Life is somewhere between the extremes.

That's... maybe not the best understanding of the concepts involved.

For one thing, the authors of D&D (and Moorcock, for the Elric stories) weren't mathematicians. They weren't using the terms in human senses, not mathematical ones.

Moreover, order and chaos are not mathematical concepts - they are physical concepts, in that they mean absolutely nothing except when applied to physical systems.

Then, we get to a real concepts - in a physical sense, chaos is not the opposite of order. Disorder (or most properly entropy is the opposite of order).

In this view, "heat death" is a highly disordered state - the bits are spread all around randomly, and what thermal energy there is in the system isn't available to do work. The Sun, meanwhile, is a pretty ordered state - the atoms of gases are all clumped in the middle of the solar system, and a whole lot of energy in the system is available to do work.

Now "chaos" is a matter of how predictable a system is. While order and disorder can be measured of an instant, chaos is a matter of change over time. WIll that ordered system change predictably over time? Then it is not chaotic. If its change over time is not predictable, then it is chaotic.

Chaos is also an issue of scale. On the microscopic scale, a drop of water from a pond can seem chaotic, with lots of microscopic life moving around in unpredictable ways. If you pull back, and look at that drop from far away, that drop doesn't really significantly change over time. It just sits there and slowly evaporates.

This is relevant when we think about the Sun - the detailed movements of plasma in the outer atmosphere is not very predictable. The large scale flows of plasma inside are more predictable. And, from outside, considering a timescale of thousands of years, the thing is even more predictable - it just sits there and shines.

But all the while it is shining, it is going from a state of relatively high order, to one of disorder.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The LN and CN planes should be the abodes of the Lords of Law and the Lords of Chaos from the Elric series respectively.

that would need a licencing agreement so not likely but a good idea.

I might be wrong but I think I've read thstgood/evil & law/chaos were just two different two axis frome team/bad guy termsfrom appendix N books that at some point was squished into one four axis thing.

I am aware of that but that does not change that the opposite of chaos is not order but stasis.

Mathematical chaos/order is a different category from human chaos/order.

Mathematically, the random energy of the sun is chaos and the stasis of heat death is order. Life is somewhere between the extremes.

This math has nothing to do with human alignments.

For humans, order is a world that makes sense − and everyone collectively conforming to this particular way of making sense. Chaos is individualism, where each person decides what makes sense for oneself, and others may or may not understand it.

the point of the order chaos axis was never about being human.

Scary toads dont make much sense. They tried to give them some weird reproduction mechanism to make them more ''chaotic'' but they still feel pretty uninspired and tacked-on.

For some time, I've felt that the CN plane would be best to be left to the uncaring, unfathomable aberrations of the Far Realm of Limbo, the ultimate battle ground of Gith vs Flayers, herds of gibbering mouthers flying across the skies, pocket planes shaped by the mad dreams of beholders, flesh warping living stars resting their unblinking eyes on their spawns, whispering to mortal warlocks about the mysteries of the past-yet-future of civilizations from beyond the Wheel.

As for the LN plane, if feel the theme of Bytopia (?), the mirror realm would fit better than the mechanical modrons. I prefer modrons to be more like ever-marching repair bots, fixing any plane when it's inerrant purpose was somehow broken.

aberrations do not strike me as chaotic they are mostly just strange or unknowable instead of chaos, they both have the madness thing but one shared trait is not the same as being related objects.

That's... maybe not the best understanding of the concepts involved.

For one thing, the authors of D&D (and Moorcock, for the Elric stories) weren't mathematicians. They weren't using the terms in human senses, not mathematical ones.

Moreover, order and chaos are not mathematical concepts - they are physical concepts, in that they mean absolutely nothing except when applied to physical systems.

Then, we get to a real concepts - in a physical sense, chaos is not the opposite of order. Disorder (or most properly entropy is the opposite of order).

In this view, "heat death" is a highly disordered state - the bits are spread all around randomly, and what thermal energy there is in the system isn't available to do work. The Sun, meanwhile, is a pretty ordered state - the atoms of gases are all clumped in the middle of the solar system, and a whole lot of energy in the system is available to do work.

Now "chaos" is a matter of how predictable a system is. While order and disorder can be measured of an instant, chaos is a matter of change over time. WIll that ordered system change predictably over time? Then it is not chaotic. If its change over time is not predictable, then it is chaotic.

Chaos is also an issue of scale. On the microscopic scale, a drop of water from a pond can seem chaotic, with lots of microscopic life moving around in unpredictable ways. If you pull back, and look at that drop from far away, that drop doesn't really significantly change over time. It just sits there and slowly evaporates.

This is relevant when we think about the Sun - the detailed movements of plasma in the outer atmosphere is not very predictable. The large scale flows of plasma inside are more predictable. And, from outside, considering a timescale of thousands of years, the thing is even more predictable - it just sits there and shines.

But all the while it is shining, it is going from a state of relatively high order, to one of disorder.

hence me suggesting the opposite of a chaotic system is a static system or stasis.
neither are more or less moral but both in high doses are toxic to life.

 

[Yaarel]

The main point is. With regard to human alignment:

Chaotic ≠ "random"



In math (and physics) chaos means random.

But when talking about human alignments:

Chaotic = individualistic



There is nothing "random" about individualism.

 

[Cadence]

Googled around to make sure I had the mathematical stuff right in my head and that mathematical chaos is not randomness (which is not really relevant to D&D outer planes, but seemed to come up above):

"Pseudo-random number generators [...] are examples of deterministic chaotic dynamical systems."
As contrasted with the fact that "[A] truly random sequence cannot be computed."
-Herring and Palmore (1989)

And then I thought I might as well just see what Wikipedia had to say on Chaso Theory. It has more details, and I assume there are enough mathematicians out there would would care if it was wrong and correct it.

"Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future." - Lorenz

 

[Umbran]

hence me suggesting the opposite of a chaotic system is a static system or stasis.

My point is that if you are coming at this from the view of physical systems, this is incorrect. The opposite of a chaotic system is a predictable system. The planets orbiting the sun are not static, but are highly predictable.