D&D General Reminder: Spellfire can come out of any body part…

[Argyle King]

Read the first line, here:

The post about Gygax in particular was in response to you, DarkCrisis, saying that it wouldn't be appropriate to call it hateful.

Because of the first line in my post, here, where I mention the earliest creators of D&D and their attitudes.

That is the context of bringing Gygax into the discussion. It's also part of why I linked specifically back to the Frazetta thing to show that Greenwood and Gygax both brought the oversexualization/objectification of women into D&D early on. Not that it was one or the other.

Please do not try and reframe my statement about "The earliest creators of D&D" as believing Gygax wrote this book.

Anyway. Yes. They're both different people. And they both brought problems into D&D from the start. That was my point. At least Ed Greenwood probably wouldn't misgender me.

I wasn't reframing it.

I'm just not comprehending the logic of equating one man's obsession with the female body with the probability that a different person may view you a particular way.

I would easily agree that there's certainly some overlap in the views of people from a particular time, just as there are some commonalities among people writing the game now. I would also agree that sexualized content was common. (R.E. Howard once lamented that he felt pressured to include such content so as to sell stories to publishers.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel there are at least a few degrees between "she's got huge tracts of land" and "I don't think this game is for the female brain" and "I hate an entire group of people."

 

[Blue Orange]

it's been decades since I read the book, but yeah, that's how I understood it to mean too. Even so, having a scene where a teenage girl rips her shirt open in the middle of a battle is rather cringeworthy...

I was something like 15 when I read it, and I assumed that's what was going on. The intermammary cleft (yes, I looked that up) isn't an orifice, so it was obviously Greenwood amusing himself. I just kind of rolled my eyes when I saw that--I was more upset they killed Manshoon, one of my favorite evil wizards. Though, of course, he doesn't stay dead.

 

[Blue Orange]

I wasn't reframing it.

I'm just not comprehending the logic of equating one man's obsession with the female body with the probability that a different person may view you a particular way.

I would easily agree that there's certainly some overlap in the views of people from a particular time, just as there are some commonalities among people writing the game now. I would also agree that sexualized content was common. (R.E. Howard once lamented that he felt pressured to include such content so as to sell stories to publishers.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel there are at least a few degrees between "she's got huge tracts of land" and "I don't think this game is for the female brain" and "I hate an entire group of people."

I agree. I think the point is, if you have a majority of people making jokes about tracts of land, it makes women feel less comfortable in the hobby.

But it's also true that Greenwood isn't Gygax, and Gygax isn't, I don't know, Richard Spencer? Who's genuinely hateful?

 

[Steampunkette]

I wasn't reframing it.

I'm just not comprehending the logic of equating one man's obsession with the female body with the probability that a different person may view you a particular way.

I would easily agree that there's certainly some overlap in the views of people from a particular time, just as there are some commonalities among people writing the game now. I would also agree that sexualized content was common. (R.E. Howard once lamented that he felt pressured to include such content so as to sell stories to publishers.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel there are at least a few degrees between "she's got huge tracts of land" and "I don't think this game is for the female brain" and "I hate an entire group of people."

The "Reframing" comment was directed to DarkCrisis, who felt the need to clarify that Gygax didn't write the book and was gone from TSR when it was written.

And yeah... there is a difference between those three things.

"Huge Tracts of Land" was a joke meant to undercut the clearly sexist gesture the king was making with the reference to land as dowry which is, of course, what a king in charge of a sinking castle in a swamp is after when it comes to marrying off his son to a girl from a wealthy family.

The second one and the third one are just different expressions of bigotry. One's "More Polite" than the other. But the effect of both results in the same end. Just a question of how fast you're moving toward the finish line.

"I don't hate (insert minority group here) but they're different in an important and indelible way that makes them less suited for (insert activity here)" is still ignorant bigotry. And it still leads to the same exclusionary attitudes that lead to Reddit and 4Chan and other RPG forums we don't like to talk about because of how outright bigoted they can be.

And, again, the whole thing spawned from me say "The more I learn about the earliest creators of D&D" which isn't JUST GREENWOOD or JUST GYGAX or JUST ARNESON but all of them, together.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Also, the devil never needs an advocate outside of picking popes.

FWIW, the advocatus diaboli (Latin for Devil's advocate) had nothing to do with picking popes. AKA the Promoter of the Faith, the office holder’s job was to argue against the canonization (sainthood) of a candidate in order to uncover any character flaws or misrepresentation of the evidence favoring canonization.

In a sense, they were paranormal investigators.

 

[Steampunkette]

FWIW, the advocatus diaboli (Latin for Devil's advocate) had nothing to do with picking popes. AKA the Promoter of the Faith, the office holder’s job was to argue against the canonization (sainthood) of a candidate in order to uncover any character flaws or misrepresentation of the evidence favoring canonization.

In a sense, they were paranormal investigators.

Thank you for the correction!

 

[Blue Orange]

And yeah... there is a difference between those three things.

"Huge Tracts of Land" was a joke meant to undercut the clearly sexist gesture the king was making with the reference to land as dowry which is, of course, what a king in charge of a sinking castle in a swamp is after when it comes to marrying off his son to a girl from a wealthy family.

The second one and the third one are just different expressions of bigotry. One's "More Polite" than the other. But the effect of both results in the same end. Just a question of how fast you're moving toward the finish line.

"I don't hate (insert minority group here) but they're different in an important and indelible way that makes them less suited for (insert activity here)" is still ignorant bigotry. And it still leads to the same exclusionary attitudes that lead to Reddit and 4Chan and other RPG forums we don't like to talk about because of how outright bigoted they can be.

So, I admit, you are right.

So wait, we're talking about bigotry? Well, I am of partial Jewish ancestry, which allows me to talk about that history, which has a wide variety of acceptance over different countries and time periods, including some, ah, very bad periods. (I'm not nuts about the you're-only-allowed-to-talk-about-your-own-kind rule, but I guess it helps me here.)

And it's not always obvious which country was the right one over the long term. I mean, Germany was better than Russia in 1900. Not so in 1940. You can come up with some general rules (left-wing dictatorships better than right-wing, better odds if the country speaks English for some reason) but it has more to do with historical contingency--all the Dutch Jews died less because the Dutch were raving antisemites than because they were super organized so they had lists of everyone and they weren't big enough to resist the Germans effectively. Conversely, the Danish Jews survived because they were geographically able to ship them to Sweden. So, basically, any degree of bigotry has the possibility to turn malignant, because once you're set apart the general public is tempted to turn you in if a hostile foreign power invades. (Or the mood shifts, in countries like the USA where invasion is difficult.)

I will quibble that you're not necessarily always moving toward the finish line--there was discrimination against British Jews after they came back from exile but it never went genocidal, these things can go back and forth without ever reaching that point. But you're not wrong to take a zero-tolerance approach if you fear extermination. (Also, while 4chan is pretty bad, Reddit subreddits vary hugely depending on moderation.)

Finis.

(I'm still sorry the Jewish thread got shut down. I really wanted to come up with some lists of magic bagels.)

 

[Argyle King]

Second Thoughts: Was Ed Greenwood describing the Care Bear Stare?

 

[DarkCrisis]

Another “good” part:

Elminster fights a lady mage he once trained and wins. As she lays dying in his arms she says basically “I’ve always loved you. I wish we could have banged.”
Then dies.

 

[Seramus]

Elminster fights a lady mage he once trained and wins. As she lays dying in his arms she says basically “I’ve always loved you. I wish we could have banged.”
Then dies.

Most of the archmages in FR are full on swingers. Like, banging all the time. And that's not just Greenwood. There's a lot of teenage wish fulfillment there, especially in the earlier novels.