I wouldn’t take it too personally. I’m sure had they known more trans/gay/black people then they wouldn’t have the same beliefs. I imagine there are parts of America not to mention the rest of the world where there wasn’t a whole lot of diversity.The more I read about the earliest creators of D&D and their attitudes well into the 2000s towards... literally any minority group...
The more I realize they'd have hated me for existing in their spaces and for all the kindness they might smear over that hatred in favor of the illusion that everyone is equal at their table it just makes me super uncomfortable.
Thank the universe for EN World and other spaces that actively push back against bigotry and do not tolerate it.
Yeah, that would make sense. Elminster's attitude is much more 60s hippie than anything else...and people have argued for years Elminster is Greenwood's wish-fulfillment character.That's Greenwood's style; characters are all ruled by their id, so when they're in love they're flat-out crazy in love. Also, being a free-love hippie, his characters tend to get it on at the drop of a hat.
The main character 16 yr old girl and the man (boy) she agreed to marry after knowing him all of 1 day are taken to Elminsters tower for protection. Elminster offers them his bedchambers and basically says to this pair of 16 year olds "Feel free to bang one out, but keep the screaming down." And I get medieval times and adult adventuring age is different from modern sensibilities etc but even that aside some old dude telling a couple to "Feel free to go to town on each other" is very... wow.
Yeah I tried to read the first book a couple years ao and checked out about half way through after it got a bit sexist. Read up on the rest of it and yeah... wow that's a lot of sexism.When I first read Spellfire, their ages didn't really bother me, because I was younger than them. Sixteen practically seemed an adult to me. Heck, someone in their late twenties would've been old.
Now that I'm (ahem, much) older, it does come across as a bit creepy. But then again, there's stuff like Piers Anthony's Xanth, which kids routinely read, and is very creepy.
Yeah I tried to read the first book a couple years ao and checked out about half way through after it got a bit sexist. Read up on the rest of it and yeah... wow that's a lot of sexism.
Okay. But if we were talking about any other poster on these forums we would have to be respectful about it.We sometimes need to wrestle with the fact that people who are nice in many ways can also be not-so-great in many ways.
I wouldn’t be allowed to make pretty strong allegations about someone for instance without having some pretty strong evidence to support it. At least I would hope this would be the case.
Ooooh, yeah!I imagine there are parts of America not to mention the rest of the world where there wasn’t a whole lot of diversity.
Well it might be immaturely sexual. I’m not going to agree that it’s sexist. It seems like the writing is pretty indiscriminate between the male and female characters. He put a female lead in a heroic role and described spellfire coming from her breast …. Note not breasts.That his writing tends to the immaturely sexist is there for us all to see, and has been quoted.
It's interesting to me that we've cycled from 'talking about breasts is bad because it's indecent' in the 50s to 'talking about breasts is OK because sex is OK' in the 90s (when the book was published) to 'talking about breasts is bad because it's sexist' in the 10s and 20s. (In the 2050s? Who knows?)Well it might be immaturely sexual. I’m not going to agree that it’s sexist. It seems like the writing is pretty indiscriminate between the male and female characters. He put a female lead in a heroic role and described spellfire coming from her breast …. Note not breasts.
That criticism of Greenwood, segued into a pretty strong attack on him and others. But the point is this is a thread about him, he writes on here from time to time as I understand it and I just think people should be more careful.
It’s OK to note like Ed Greenwood books, but as I said, if it was any other forum poster that was being discussed I think you’d have your moderator hat on and be cooling things down.
Didn't Elminster raise some of the Seven Sisters and end up hooking up with one?Weird that this is the Greenwoodism that gets people's goat, when he canonically established Mirt as marrying his own (Adoptive) daughter.