D&D (2024) Sharp shooter/Great Weapon Mastery

[Blue]

You keep waiting for water to flow uphill. They've already shown that they are boosting caster versatility and nerfing martial effectiveness (SS/GWM, the rogue) as solid indication how this plays out. We also have 20+ years of WOTC caster favoritism, barring the brief moment that was 4E.

So your argument is "waiting for actual facts isn't worthwhile"? Based on your assertion that you've already determined without seeing either martials or pure casters what their goals are.

Thanks, I'll wait for actual information.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This seems to be 2014 thinking - that all feats are the same power. Looking at the 1st level feats from the first UA, none have + ability scores. And these fighting style feats seem equivalent of other 1st level feats.

So it's an equal power level to the other 1st level feats, which is the primary thing to compare it to. Not a trap at all.

As a point of clarification I meant that if someone was using their ASIs to take first level feats (as apparently suggested by Jeremy Crawford) that was a trap choice. I agree that this is a clearly marked trap - it just shouldn't be suggested as a sensible option and the rules make it obvious it isn't.

 

[Neonchameleon]

At the opportunity cost of two ASIs, which if going into DEX would have been +2 to hit and +2 to damage for every attack.

That depends on your level and your race. Humans (and Custom Lineage PCs) couldn't spend their bonus feat as an ASI. And most characters could only ever put two ASIs into Dex.

So if you were playing a human you could become this broken blender by 4th level at the cost of +1 to hit and damage - and if a fighter at no such cost by L8.

 

[Blue]

That depends on your level and your race. Humans (and Custom Lineage PCs) couldn't spend their bonus feat as an ASI. And most characters could only ever put two ASIs into Dex.

Sure, but vhumans got two +1s instead of a +2 and a +1, so they were already behind.

So yes, some subset of low level characters who have -1.5 to hit and damage instead of -2.

So if you were playing a human you could become this broken blender by 4th level at the cost of +1 to hit and damage - and if a fighter at no such cost by L8.

Again, the vhuman fighter 8 would still have the no +2 ability score opportunity cost, but that's pretty low. One of the bonuses of the fighter is extra feats, just like other classes have other features. So one race/class combo at 8th only has a small penalty compared to other characters.

 

[Bill Zebub]

So your argument is "waiting for actual facts isn't worthwhile"? Based on your assertion that you've already determined without seeing either martials or pure casters what their goals are.

Thanks, I'll wait for actual information.

It’s a shame that we can’t really have a conversation about what’s actually in the packet because every attempt to do so gets flooded with grousing about what’s not in the packet, grousing about what won’t be in future packets, grousing about everything published between 2014 and 2922, and grousing about the competence (none) and/or intentions (evil) of the designers.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sure, but vhumans got two +1s instead of a +2 and a +1, so they were already behind.

If we're going by bonuses no they weren't. A +1 was all you needed to turn your 15 into a 16 and (ignoring Custom Lineage cheese) 16 was the highest your starting stat could be. Vumans using the Standard Array who went for a full feat generally had their top three stats of 16, 14, 14. Which is exactly the same number of plusses as 17, 14, 14 or 16, 16, 13.

 

[squibbles]

It’s a shame that we can’t really have a conversation about what’s actually in the packet because every attempt to do so gets flooded with grousing about what’s not in the packet, grousing about what won’t be in future packets, grousing about everything published between 2014 and 2922, and grousing about the competence (none) and/or intentions (evil) of the designers.

Wait... isn't there another word that means something like grousing that also starts with 'g' and that famously gets applied to longstanding D&D players.

...anyway... You're right that all we can meaningfully discuss now is what's been released. But everything that's been released so far has to come with the asterisk that we don't know its context, which naturally leads to speculation, reliance on ones priors (i.e. biases), and therefore grousing

It's kind of an age-old question -- if category A is lessor to category B, is it ever right to go into category A and do any kind of remediation to outlier subcategories that are disproportionate within the category. In general I would say it is a good plan -- that hand-crossbow CBE/SS spammers, halberd PAM/GWM-ers, and one-handed staff/spear and shield PAMers are such disproportionate winners within the martial category doesn't really do much benefit for anyone wanting to play a martial in any other light (be it two weapon fighting, sword and shield, or whatnot). Better to bring those strategies in line with the other options, while simultaneously working on bringing playing a martial up overall (and/or casters down).

emphasis mine

I completely agree with you--that's what should happen. I am, however, somewhat cynical that they'll only do the first part while not simultaneously doing the second part ...because, well, see above.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I guess looking over everything, the real question for me is "are these now good feats"? This is the part I'm struggling with.

Is +1 Strength, the ability to bonus action attack after killing an enemy, and the +2 or +3 to damage once per turn worth a feat?

Is +1 Dex, ignore cover, ignore range, ignore melee worth a feat?

Or, should these get a little bit more? Because EVERYTHING gets the +1 ASI, so if that is standard and we take it away, how do these feats stack up?


Also, since we are grousing about the negatives, I do want to point out some positives. Mage Slayer is now real good. Once per day, when you would fail a mental save, you succeed, is REALLY good on just about any martial class. Durable is now incredibly good (for tables that aren't mine, because of how I do HD) in that it allows you to spend hit dice as a bonus action in combat, and it gives advantage on Death Saves. That's huge for barbarians and fighters.

There are a lot of nerfs as well, but there are buffs that I really like.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

(they nerfed Guidance,).

No, they took guidance out behind the shed and capped it. There is no way that is staying in the game, and if it does, it is now useless.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Or, should these get a little bit more? Because EVERYTHING gets the +1 ASI, so if that is standard and we take it away, how do these feats stack up?

There are people who will try to calculate the value of feats, exclusive of the ASIs, and only choose the best ones, but the way I personally look at it is that the +1 makes my character strictly better at their job, so I can pick the non-ASI part I like best, regardless of how effective it is.

It's kind of like the ASI is the broccoli, and the other parts are the ice cream. I ate my broccoli, so I can choose whatever flavor ice cream I want for dessert.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

No, they took guidance out behind the shed and capped it. There is no way that is staying in the game, and if it does, it is now useless.

It's not useless. It's like a minor Bardic Inspiration that you get to give to failed ability checks once per day per person. It's pretty useful still.