D&D (2024) There needs to be a 4th spell list.

[Neonchameleon]

My recommendation - Fix the lack of iconic bard spells through subclass spell list. Its what Tasha's did to fix Sorcerer, it can work here.

The Lore bard is already getting Arcane, Nature (primal) and Religion (divine) skills - give them a subclass list that gives them the option to take, say Bane (divine) or Faerie Fire (primal) as first circle spells, Enhance Ability (divine) or Silence (primal) for second circle, Speak with Plants (primal) at third circle, etc.

I think doing it through schools rather than tags is an attempt to put the cart before the horse. That a well designed class will have a custom spell list that will correlate with but not be a perfect match for any school that isn't named after that class.

 

[Minigiant]

CRAZY IDEA​

ARCANE- Universal Magic for Artificers and Wizards
DIVINE- Outer Planes for Clerics and Paladins
ELEMENTAL- Inner Planar Magic for Sorcerers
MENTAL- Transitive Planar and Far Realm Magic for Bards, Truenamers, and Psions
PRIMAL- Material Planar Magic for Druids and Rangers
SHADOW- Corrupted Planar Magic for Warlocks and Shadomages

 

[Charlaquin]

And I hate bards being forced to have all their healing spells prepared constantly. Healing bard was one potential flavour in 5e, but there were options which didn't have healing at all. This is just pigeonholing them and forcing them into this particular niche.

To me, this Bard is feeling more like a wizard with a guitar than an actual bard.

Bard is a wizard with a guitar. Ranger is a wizard with a bow. Neo-vancian casting is consuming every unique and interesting character feature and it bores me to tears.

 

[Staffan]

Might just make a better bard by picking fighter, then multiclassing rogue. Then taking a bit of druid.

That said, I would rather see each class have their own distinct spell list. I mean, if we're getting hacks like "Arcane spells from these four schools plus these specific divine spells" as early as the core rules, that's a sign that the lists don't do what you want them to.

Another option would be to steal from Arcana Evolved, Monte Cook's alt-3e. AE used a similar scheme for spells as for weapons, splitting them into Simple, Complex, and Exotic spells combined with liberal sprinkling of various tags. All casters would have access to all Simple spells, and often something like "All complex psychic spells" or "All complex and exotic Air spells".

 

[Staffan]

Since when are bards meant to be the dedicated party healer?

Since they got healing spells back in 2000? Of course, healing other than wands of CLW were so anemic in 3e that that barely counted, but still.

The more classes that can act as dedicated party healer, the better. No class should be necessary for adventuring, and that especially includes the cleric.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Since when are bards meant to be the dedicated party healer?

At this point their identity is so far removed from their early incarnations in 2e and 3e that it's unrecognisable. What happened to that jack of all trades, dabble in skills and magic while not being the master of either class from earlier editions?

Now they feel more like wizards with healing and guitars.

Except for the healing, the bard is very close to the 2e bard in playstyle and feel.
With half of the arcane list and prepared spells they are getting even closer.

The only thing I miss is additional magical secret at level 6 for the lore bard, so you can have fireball +1 from the arcane list.
I'd really want that back. The rest is more than cool.

Lets just forget the 3e bard...

 

[DEFCON 1]

The easiest way I've found to not have your Bard feel like a "Wizard with a Guitar" or your Ranger feel like a "Wizard with a Bow" is to actually give your characters personalities that are not the same as the personalities you give your Wizards when you play them.

I have never once seen a Ranger at any of my tables feel like a "Wizard with a Bow" because nobody plays their Ranger like a Wizard. Wizard characters tend to have personalities in one direction... Rangers have personalities, interests, and foci in a different one. Out on adventure the Ranger character's attentions are on certain things, the Wizard's attentions are on other things. During downtime the Wizards tend to do wizardly things, the Rangers do rangerly things. And neither of those things are remotely similar.

So even if a Ranger's class features are put in the PHB under the Spells mechanical format, when you are playing the game you can just do your Ranger actions like Ranger actions and don't emphasize the whole "I'M CASTING A SPELL, LOOK AT MY WIGGLY FINGERS AND BOOMING VOICE SPEAKING IN A WEIRD ARCANE TONGUE!" thing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The easiest way I've found to not have your Bard feel like a "Wizard with a Guitar" or your Ranger feel like a "Wizard with a Bow" is to actually give your characters personalities that are not the same as the personalities you give your Wizards when you play them.

I have never once seen a Ranger at any of my tables feel like a "Wizard with a Bow" because nobody plays their Ranger like a Wizard. Wizard characters tend to have personalities in one direction... Rangers have personalities, interests, and foci in a different one. Out on adventure the Ranger character's attentions are on certain things, the Wizard's attentions are on other things. During downtime the Wizards tend to do wizardly things, the Rangers do rangerly things. And neither of those things are remotely similar.

So even if a Ranger's class features are put in the PHB under the Spells mechanical format, when you are playing the game you can just do your Ranger actions like Ranger actions and don't emphasize the whole "I'M CASTING A SPELL, LOOK AT MY WIGGLY FINGERS AND BOOMING VOICE SPEAKING IN A WEIRD ARCANE TONGUE!" thing.

Except you're still wiggling your fingers and saying magic words. Pretending you aren't doesn't change anything.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Except you're still wiggling your fingers and saying magic words. Pretending you aren't doesn't change anything.

If you as a player at the table do not say your character is wiggling your fingers and saying magic words... and instead just narrate whatever the effects of the "spell" end up being as part of your Ranger action and roleplaying... then it doesn't matter whatever the "invisible background world" is that is occurring based on how the "mechanical rules of the game" are suggesting is happening. Because you can change those mechanical rules and the narrative emphasis those mechanical rules are written to have.

What matters is what actually occurs at the table, not this invisible background world that you aren't actually playing or representing during the game. And if your mind IS constantly on that invisible background world and what you're imagining is actually happening because of the way the rulebook has suggested the default narrative method sets things... that's on you. WotC shouldn't waste their time trying to design the game trying to make you stop doing that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you as a player at the table do not say your character is wiggling your fingers and saying magic words... and instead just narrate whatever the effects of the "spell" end up being as part of your Ranger action and roleplaying... then it doesn't matter whatever the "invisible background world" is that is occurring based on how the "mechanical rules of the game" are suggesting is happening. Because you can change those mechanical rules and the narrative emphasis those mechanical rules are written to have.

What matters is what actually occurs at the table, not this invisible background world that you aren't actually playing or representing during the game. And if your mind IS constantly on that invisible background world and what you're imagining is actually happening because of the way the rulebook has suggested the default narrative method sets things... that's on you. WotC shouldn't waste their time trying to design the game trying to make you stop doing that.

Its still magic. I know rules in general don't seem to be very important to you, but not everyone feels that way.