D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XI: Rangers)

[niklinna]

You misunderstand. I am not saying "bring back Spell-Like Abilities, Supernatural abilities, and Extraordinary abilities."

Oh no I don't think I misunderstood, I was indeed being very sarcastic!

I am saying that it would impoverish the game to restrict things such that the only supernatural (=magical, non-mundane, whatever you want to call it) abilities are specifically spells. You'd have to eliminate Lay on Hands, Song of Rest, Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Ki, and plenty of other features that are all explicitly supernatural but which are not spells, and could not be expressed as spells. At least, not without completely gutting their function.

Yep, all that, 100% each.

I think we should expand, not contract, the things that aren't spells but are still clearly "magical" (I prefer the word "supernatural" because "magical" is so thoroughly married to "spells specifically the way D&D uses them" that most people use the two interchangeably.) Let the classes known for spellcasting do spellcasting, and let other classes have their own ways of approaching the mystical, supernatural, transmundane, etc.

That or "uncanny". But yeah mostly not spells.

I had thought that was the whole point of repudiating 4e's design: that having everyone use the same fundamental resource mechanics is bad. That "making everyone a Wizard" was bad. Now people are proposing to literally, actually make everyone a Wizard!

Ain't it funny how things come around and people embrace what they claimed to hate?

Exactly. Especially if the One D&D playtest move of having one Primal list goes through--meaning there will not be any Ranger-specific spells anymore.

Guess I'll just have to play that Fighter then—or a game that does a proper Ranger! Level Up came close but the folks I know aren't into it.

 

[Undrave]

Wait what? How?

The ability to counter spells and other magic is proof that spells are designed in a problematic manner? What on earth?

If the game is designed with specific counters to a specific element, that tells me the designers knows that element is too strong. That you have to bring it up to DMs ("Hey, you can use Anti-Magic Zone!") as a FIX for Spellcasters being too powerful?! Or that a common tip for Wizard of a certain level is to always prepare Counterspell?

Yeah, nah that screams problematic design to me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I doubt a response to any other part of this would be productive, but I felt I should respond to this.

Powers are actually generic. They literally correspond to all possible pre-defined actions. If an action is pre-defined, it's a power. There is an exact, one-to-one correspondence between "is a predefined action" and "is a power." Every pre-defined action is a power, down to even basic attacks, and every power is a pre-defined action.

Spells are not the end-all, be-all of pre-defined actions. They are significantly more limited than that, in numerous ways, which you have repeatedly and blithely dismissed with less than a full sentence. Those limitations are the problem, and your refusal to even momentarily consider them is a significant stumbling block for having any kind of conversation here.

Edit: One other response.

I listed the artificer because absorb elements is an artificer spell--as well as being a spell on the class list of every other class I mentioned. The only reason I listed those classes is because they are the classes which can cast absorb elements, which just happens to be the alphabetically first 1st-level spell from the ranger spell list (and most lists it's on, since it starts with "ab.") There was no further motive than to note that this spell effect is 100% identical for all of these classes that cast it, and the slots used for it are 100% fungible.

However, in this case, you are mistaken. While artificers do "cast through tools," absorb elements is not an M spell, and thus is not cast that way. The artificer's tools are not involved. It does have somatic components though, which are described thusly: "Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures." "Forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures" that can be done single-handed. What else should I be calling it? (And no, I don't consider that an interesting or meaningful distinction from "cast through spell focus," which is what every 5e spellcaster does with M spells.)

Yeah that’s about what I figured.

Via supernatural abilities which are not spells.

Why? Is there any reason beyond a distaste for non-wizard types casting spells as such?

Via supernatural abilities which are not spells. Like how Lay On Hands, Song of Rest, Inspiration Dice, Channel Divinity, and Ki are supernatural abilities which are not spells, though they may sometimes interact with spell mechanics (e.g. that Cleric variant CD that restores a spell slot or certain Monk actions which allow you to cast spells by spending Ki.)


Supernatural abilities which are not spells. Same as several other classes which have supernatural abilities that are not spells, and thus cannot be used by Fighters.

I am dead serious. The supernatural should not be shoehorned into "spells and only spells."

So shoehorn existing spell effects into “technically not a spell” features, just so a few people can technically avoid Spellcasting while still playing a quite magical character?

Absolutely not.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You have a point with anti-magic, but counterspell is in-genre.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I had thought that was the whole point of repudiating 4e's design: that having everyone use the same fundamental resource mechanics is bad. That "making everyone a Wizard" was bad. Now people are proposing to literally, actually make everyone a Wizard!

They are? Also even if so, this comparison would only be meaningful if the same individuals that didn’t like 4e’s design are now “literally” proposing to make a version of the game with only wizards.

Or were you perhaps being hyperbolic, there? Got “everyone a literal wizard” and “most magical stuff is spells regardless of class” mixed up?

Pretty sure no one has suggested that Rage should be a spell, even though it was in the past. Nor Flurry of Blows. Nor, ya know…any fighter or rogue base class feature.

If the game is designed with specific counters to a specific element, that tells me the designers knows that element is too strong. That you have to bring it up to DMs ("Hey, you can use Anti-Magic Zone!") as a FIX for Spellcasters being too powerful?! Or that a common tip for Wizard of a certain level is to always prepare Counterspell?

Yeah, nah that screams problematic design to me.

Does Defensive Duelist, Uncanny Dodge, Deflect Missiles, and every other attack negating/mitigating feature in the game indicate that weapon attacks are problematic in design?

Having mechanics that can counter a thing does not indicate any such thing. In the case of Counterspell, it’s literally just a magical parry (and should be a basic function of Spellcasting), and in the case anti-magic, it simply indicates that 5e bows to tradition in terms of keeping classic elements that people missed when they didn’t include them. That’s it.

 

[Undrave]

You have a point with anti-magic, but counterspell is in-genre.

Does Defensive Duelist, Uncanny Dodge, Deflect Missiles, and every other attack negating/mitigating feature in the game indicate that weapon attacks are problematic in design?

Having mechanics that can counter a thing does not indicate any such thing. In the case of Counterspell, it’s literally just a magical parry (and should be a basic function of Spellcasting), and in the case anti-magic, it simply indicates that 5e bows to tradition in terms of keeping classic elements that people missed when they didn’t include them. That’s it.

Hm… I guess you guys are right about Counterspell. I still think Anti-Magic Zones being a thing feels silly. Especially in a setting where magic is so badly defined as in D&D. Maybe if ‘The Arcane’ was properly defined it would work better for me, but spells are just barely holding to their veneer of not just being game elements.

 

[Undrave]

Hunter 23 the most boring and themeless package ever, and exists just as a 3-level dip for Horde Breaker

Hunter 27 - 2 = 25 not sure why this is so popular?

the level 3 abilities, like Horde Breaker and gang, should just be stuff any Ranger can pick. Put them in the Fighting Styles section!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hm… I guess you guys are right about Counterspell. I still think Anti-Magic Zones being a thing feels silly. Especially in a setting where magic is so badly defined as in D&D. Maybe if ‘The Arcane’ was properly defined it would work better for me, but spells are just barely holding to their veneer of not just being game elements.

I think that anti-magic, especially the beholder’s gaze, but also zones both naturally occurring and manufactured, are a really thematically interesting element of the game.

I do think that they should be like puzzles for spellcasters, who can spend resources to bring magic back into the “dead” zone, though.

the level 3 abilities, like Horde Breaker and gang, should just be stuff any Ranger can pick. Put them in the Fighting Styles section!

Or add them to favored enemy.

 

[Ancalagon]

I've never played a swarmskeeper ranger, but I have seen them played in 2 ongoing games, and the PC is effective, and the players seem to have a lot of fun doing it.

I know it won't win based on some people's dislike of the theme, but it definitely works well.

(edit: I'll note both are halflings. Coincidence?)

 

[Undrave]

I think that anti-magic, especially the beholder’s gaze, but also zones both naturally occurring and manufactured, are a really thematically interesting element of the game.

I do think that they should be like puzzles for spellcasters, who can spend resources to bring magic back into the “dead” zone, though.

It just feels very arbitrary. Like the DM decides 'no magic here!' and that's why there's no magic there. It doesn't feel like a natural part of the world, just a game construct that exists to counter a specific game construct.

Or add them to favored enemy.

Even better idea!