D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XII: Rogues)

[RealAlHazred]

(Great. I thought I saw a really nice Old School Essentials Swashbuckler just a few hours ago, but I can't find it again. My browser history is impenetrable today. I won't be unhappy if the Swashbuckler wins, but there are several subclasses I really like that are left. EDIT: Found it.)

Heck, I like Assassin just fine. It's not meant for what people at my table tried to do with it. If you want a guy who does more like the Assassin's Creed thing, that's kind of like a DEX-y Duelist Fighter (EDIT: Or Swashbuckler Rogue). The Assassin Rogue is the guy who takes one shot at the target from a long ways off with the best weapon available and a heavily-poisoned round, and then immediately leaves the scene whether he hits or misses. If he hit and killed the target, great. If he missed or didn't kill the target, well, there's backup plans and contingencies, and he'd be better off figuring out next steps in the Safe House anyway, rather than in an alleyway while fighting irate guards.

 

[Lycurgon]

While I think the Rogue is generally a well designed class that does what it is designed to do well, the one think I don't like is the big gap between getting the level 3 subclass features and the 9 level features. That is often a lot of game play without getting more subclass flavour adding to the class.

The soul knife has so much potential, it is a pity it is so fundamental flawed. The Soul blades can't be used for reaction attacks, and with a strict reading of RAW can't even be combined with Extra Attack. I have read of people resorting to carrying daggers and either swapping then from hand to hand or drawing and dropping them each round to be able to use both the bonus action attack and a Dagger for reactions. But that is a simple thing to fix with house rules. But this flaw is definitely enough to downvote it into oblivion.

That aside the subclass really effective. The group telepathy is really useful, the skill bolstering is very good since it doesn't use a psi dice if it doesn't help you. Those abilities alone are enough to make it a good subclass. The bonus action attack is a good way to get more chances at getting your sneak attack to work each round.

The swashbuckler is fun and I can see why it is popular. Although AC can be a bit of an issue, depending on how much magic items are available in a given campaign.

But my personal favourite subclass is the Arcane Trickster. It does overcome the issue of the big gap between subclass features by getting spells throughout those levels. The spells add a lot of versatility to the class and make the Rogue more effective. While it would be better without the school restrictions the free choice spell does open up all spells, which helps with variety and different builds. I do think the spell restrictions are a better fit for Arcane Trickster than the restrictions of the Eldritch Knight fit the arcane warrior concept (Abjuration fits well but don't think Evocation is of much use as they are generally better using their extra Attack feature than throw a damage spell - I think I would give EK Transformation instead).

I find the Assassin to be quite disappointing. It is too relent surprise and winning initiative. If that fails they don't have anything else to work with in combat. It can get very effective if it is combined with Gloom Stalker or Fighter multiclass builds that increase the number of attacks, but I think a subclass should be able to stand on its own merit. And the disguise abilities are only a little better than what PCs should be able to do with just skill rolls.

 

[Undrave]

While I think the Rogue is generally a well designed class that does what it is designed to do well, the one think I don't like is the big gap between getting the level 3 subclass features and the 9 level features. That is often a lot of game play without getting more subclass flavour adding to the class.

Yeah that's definately a weakness of the class.

 

[Ancalagon]

@Ancalagon I'm DMing for a soul knife in Spelljammer right now, great subclass!

That definitely would fit the setting!

Our campaign is in Drakkenheim, it's the one where I am playing the goblin mutagenist, mr Butters. The dwarven forge cleric and the halfling swarmskeeper are somewhat benevolent, but the rogue, the goblin and the wizard are scheemers... and a soul knife really fits well too

 

[Ancalagon]

Another rogue experience for me was the thief (standard human, sailor background) in a pbp game on this very forum. The thief's mobility and fast hand weren't useful often, but when they were... very useful. It was an underground dungeon of sort (a dragon lair with evil cultists and mercenaries and multiple PC parties in the dungeon at once... it was wild!). The dragon was able to project their essence to attack the parties remotely, so it was quite dangerous too.

The same dungeon had - first in another party, then the same "final" party (there had been some player attrition) a multi class arcane trickster/bladesigner elf. He was much more magical of course, and perhaps more effective overall... but my thief also had a tiny bit of magic (magic initiate) and I had to rely on my wits far more. So whenever I pulled something off by being creative instead of just casting a spell... very nice.

In a way, the thief has a lot of the ... purity of the rogue experience. It's all about the player's wits.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yeah that's definately a weakness of the class.

It is being fixed in 5.5... it's now at level 7 that the next subclass features show up. However, that means that evasion doesn't show up until level 9, so I don't know if that's a buff or a nerf...

 

[DeviousQuail]

It is being fixed in 5.5... it's now at level 7 that the next subclass features show up. However, that means that evasion doesn't show up until level 9, so I don't know if that's a buff or a nerf...

3, 6, 10, and 14 for the subclass features. Second expertise moves from 6 to 7 and Evasion moves from 7 to 9.

Personally I hope they keep evasion at 7 and move second expertise to 9 instead. That's when the new bard and ranger get their second expertise.

 

[Undrave]

It is being fixed in 5.5... it's now at level 7 that the next subclass features show up. However, that means that evasion doesn't show up until level 9, so I don't know if that's a buff or a nerf...

Feels like a nerf. if they take early Evasion away. The Monk still gets it at 7th no?

 

[Undrave]

3, 6, 10, and 14 for the subclass features. Second expertise moves from 6 to 7 and Evasion moves from 7 to 9.

Personally I hope they keep evasion at 7 and move second expertise to 9 instead. That's when the new bard and ranger get their second expertise.

Just have both a subclass feature and second expertise at 6. Throw another one at 9th

 

[RealAlHazred]

I find the Assassin to be quite disappointing. It is too relent surprise and winning initiative. If that fails they don't have anything else to work with in combat. It can get very effective if it is combined with Gloom Stalker or Fighter multiclass builds that increase the number of attacks, but I think a subclass should be able to stand on its own merit. And the disguise abilities are only a little better than what PCs should be able to do with just skill rolls.

Like I said, if you're doing the Assassin by jumping people in an alley (or even just having a "fair fight"), I don't think that's the way it's meant to be played. The Assassin is about a complete surprise attack from a rooftop across the market square, the target not even aware they have been targeted, the contract sealed in back alleys with no word leaking to anyone. That's the Assassin's key moment. She initiates combat (by attacking first), gets surprise (so her target cannot even react), hits before they go (so it's a critical), adds Sneak Attack (because she had advantage since her target was unaware of the attack), and hopefully thought to poison the crossbow bolt (so double crossbow dice, double Sneak Attack dice, and double poison dice).

If you want to do the Assassin's Creed thing, and hide in the brush, jumping out to stab your target and then jumping back into hiding, that's more a Scout thing. If you want to jump out, stab your target, and then fight the guards, that's a Swashbuckler for you.