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Star Wars: Andor

Insulting other members
I don't understand how this is a response to anything I said.
it is a childish fantasy to suggest we will write computer code that magically makes our computers sentient.
your essay on how droids need to have rights is childish and the show is not for children, it is for adults, stick with star trek and mainstream disney, that was designed for you.
 

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No because humans can't be reprogrammed as such.

Someone could theoretically capture R2, memory wipe him easily (not really possible with a human) install assassin droid programming and send R2 after Luke.

Data by comparison is fully sentient. Star Wars Droids are still limited by their programming so argueably lack true free will.

If your PC could talk to you is it sentient?
How about the Doctor from Voyager? He very much can be reprogrammed, have his behaviour overridden, even have his memory wiped - there are episodes in which those things happen. But he's also a fully-realised person who campaigns for and ultimately achieves a degree of equal standing with the other Voyager crewmembers.
 

How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.

(And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)
 

That feels like a softer distinction than you think it is.

I don't see how.

And the droids in Star Wars, especially Threepio and Artoo, are frequently specifically there as audience stand-ins, sympathetic observers through which we can see the story. They are absolutely not the Other.

Well, they are certainly not human. And I don't see them as a stand-in for myself when I'm watching the movie.

There are presently no other sentient beings that we can relate to.

That was part of my point.

When we examine how we would relate to non-human sentience, we are examining our own attitudes and how we treat others.

That was part of my point as well.

And that is only of value if we are, in the process, examining how we treat other humans, because, again, there are no other sentients that we are aware of.

I don't think that follows. First, because examining what we would do in a hypothetical situation is a major portion of play. Science fiction is about a yearning for the future, where we make intellectual play of things that might be, like what it would be like to have AI or to meet aliens. And I think that is valuable play, because you can see how that play over time has made people more thoughtful and open minded, less likely to act by instinctive or emotional reflex, which will be valuable when and if these hypothetical events come about. More to the point though, the act of examining how we might relate to non-humans does not in itself preclude the other purpose, using that as a spring board for self-reflection about ourselves using comparison and contrast. If the justification for treating a non-human some way is the contrast with humans, then it can't be true that that is the justification for treating a human that way.

But when I'm examining how I ought to properly treat a Vulcan, an Andorran, a protocol droid, or a parasitical xenomorph I am most certainly not claiming that in doing so I'm making an analogy for how I treat other humans! Each should be treated differently. It would be better to not have any non-human thing or to imagine any non-human thing than to imagine a non-human thing and suggest that's how you should treat a human!

It is, because you can't make a species alien that is intended to be played by human beings. Ultimately, any playable character is an expression of ourselves.

That's not as strong of a statement as you think it is. This isn't a categorical truth. This is truth by degree. While I agree that we can never fully imagine the alien and as such every imagined alien is in someway not fully alien but an expression of our humanity, that doesn't mean that the human imagination is so paltry that we are unable to role-play something that isn't fully ourself. While any playable character is in some sense an expression of the player, that doesn't mean that player character is necessarily the player! It's quite possible that PC's have personality beliefs actions and logical/ethical/emotional frameworks quite at odds with the player.

Nothing that's currently been portrayed in science fiction or fantasy comes close to what those beings will actually be like. We really have frighteningly little context for knowing what a being with high intelligence but which lacks any of our atavistic evolved behaviours, weird brain chemistry or ingrained social programming will actually look like, or how we can or should interact with it.

This is an argument for engaging in this sort of imaginative play; not an argument against it. All the more reason to explore the concepts.
 
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How about the Doctor from Voyager? He very much can be reprogrammed, have his behaviour overridden, even have his memory wiped - there are episodes in which those things happen. But he's also a fully-realised person who campaigns for and ultimately achieves a degree of equal standing with the other Voyager crewmembers.

Couldn't make it through season 1 of voyager watched maybe 6-8 episodes.

If AI can be reprogrammed its logical that others won't trust them eg the Cantina.

Star Wars Droids are somewhere between property and pets at least depicted onscreen.

The old Legends materials did go into things like droid rights, sentient Droids and an assassin droid that broke her own programming.

A droid that can and has broken their programming in Star Wars is essentially free willed.
 


How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.

(And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)

Are you a mod? No.
 

it is a childish fantasy to suggest we will write computer code that magically makes our computers sentient.

There isn't going to be any magic about it. Sooner or later we'll have computers that pass the Turing Test on a wide variety of fronts and then we're going to have to deal with what that means and what we think about it as a species. It's a topic requiring the utmost maturity and wisdom.

your essay on how droids need to have rights is childish..

I don't think so. I don't think it would be childish to suggest animals, though they are not persons, have rights although they are not perhaps the rights of a person. I don't see therefore how it is childish to suggest that something which has even more of the qualities of the person has at least as much need for rights, abliet not necessarily exactly the same ones as either a person or an animal (as it is not necessarily either of those things). And this is a major topic of a lot of very non-childish Science Fiction, including I think this Andor show. I could give an extensive reading list. So I'm not following your argument.

and the show is not for children, it is for adults, stick with star trek and mainstream disney, that was designed for you.

I don't think I've suggested that Andor is a show for children, and I am probably one of Andor's biggest fans and evangelists. I do think I'm the sort of fan it was designed for. I don't understand the basis of your claim.
 

How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.

(And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)
That would be great! Good luck.

Another great episode. I loved the tractor beam idea!
 


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