D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XIV: Wizard)

[CleverNickName]

I'm cool with all that, though I know a lot of people wouldn't be because "Don't touch my wizards!"

The more I think about it, the better I like the school-specific spell lists.

• Make custom spell lists for all of the Schools of Magic (an Abjuration list, a Conjuration list, a Divination list, etc.)
• Abjurers learn their spells and cantrips from the Abjuration list, Conjurers use the Conjuration list, you get the idea.
• These lists would be condensed and reduced: Evokers won't get any enchantments and very few illusions, for example, while Enchanters wouldn't learn necromancy or evocation.
• The trade-off: each level-up they scribe one extra spell from their chosen school of magic into their spellbook, free of charge. (Larger library instead of more spell slots.)

Eh, it's a work in progress. But I think I prefer this direction to the "build a better Wizard" direction.

It does nothing to address the "universalist" wizard, though. But like others have said, maybe this is where the Order of Scribes subclass could shine?

 

[Aldarc]

The more I think about it, the better I like the school-specific spell lists.

• Make custom spell lists for all of the Schools of Magic (an Abjuration list, a Conjuration list, a Divination list, etc.)
• Abjurers learn their spells and cantrips from the Abjuration list, Conjurers use the Conjuration list, you get the idea.
• These lists would be condensed and reduced: Evokers won't get any enchantments and very few illusions, for example, while Enchanters wouldn't learn necromancy or evocation.
• The trade-off: each level-up they scribe one extra spell from their chosen school of magic into their spellbook, free of charge.

Eh, it's a work in progress. But I think I prefer this direction to the "build a better Wizard" direction.

It does nothing to address the "universalist" wizard, though. But like others have said, maybe this is where the Order of Scribes subclass could shine?

Similarly, I personally like how Shadow of the Demon Lord does magic. It separates out spells into thematic Traditions (see list below). As characters level, they are choosing between breadth across traditions and/or depth in traditions.

Spoiler

 

[RealAlHazred]

An Eldritch Knight doesn't combine spell and sword, he uses a sword with one hand and throws spells with the other. It never feels integrated.

I mean, no they're not exactly the same. But EK needs a little work anyway, and using the weapon as a focus is the first one. I really like the general idea of the Eldritch Knight (I've used it for Aztec Jaguar Knights and non-good Church Inquisitors, both in the same campaign), but the implementation could have used more flavor and a little more playtesting, I think.

 

[Undrave]

This would still be the wizard's schtick even if they had less spells to choose from: for example, if the wizard had the sorcerer's spell list, the wizard would still have this strength. Restricting their spell list would IMHO free up space for other archetypes while also helping hone the wizard's even more. And honestly, I would probably take the psion/illusionist/enchanter and necromancer out of the wizard and make them their own thing.

There's not a lot of range between a Psion and and Enchanter when both do "mind control" as spells.

Similarly, there's not a lot of space between an Invoker and a Sorcerer if both are elemental blasters.

The only way to make more iconic ground is to limit the generalist Wizard more.

Flexibility is all nice and good as long as you don't get access to all the BEST spells in each domain. Like a Final Fantasy Red Mage: They get access to curing abilities of the White Mage and the damage of the Black Magic and they’re also not terrible in melee combat… but they don’t get the best White Magic spells, they don’t traditionally get the third level of Black Magic Spells and they only have one handed weapons available. They can do a lot but are never the BEST at it. I think maybe a Wizard could be like that.

I'm cool with all that, though I know a lot of people wouldn't be because "Don't touch my wizards!"

Augh... Wizard fans are the worse. They just want to play the Bestest Character.

 

[Aldarc]

Flexibility is all nice and good as long as you don't get access to all the BEST spells in each domain. Like a Final Fantasy Red Mage: They get access to curing abilities of the White Mage and the damage of the Black Magic and they’re also not terrible in melee combat… but they don’t get the best White Magic spells, they don’t traditionally get the third level of Black Magic Spells and they only have one handed weapons available. They can do a lot but are never the BEST at it. I think maybe a Wizard could be like that.

Is a wizard's schtick versatility? Or is it being a master of the arcane? The former IMHO seems a bit closer to the bard's schtick. The latter should come with a meaningful cost or drawback. The wizard being both the most versatile caster and the master of the arcane seems like having its cake and eating it too. I think that this was fine when there was no Sorcerer or Warlock and there was only the Magic-User, but the game has changed.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Well not for me, because that's not how I would define "the Wizard's niche." But off the cuff, it looks like it would be more of a feature than a bug. By the time the wizard is high enough of a level to cast most of these wizard-only spells, he could have dozens and dozens of spells scribed in his spellbook. That would give the player the freedom to customize their wizard after every long rest by preparing certain spells.

The rogue got captured and we need to break him out of jail? Passwall and telepathy.

Dueling an infamous swordsman in the morning? Drawmij's instant summons and tenser's transformation.

Traveling overland through dangerous territory? Find familiar for scouting, and phantom steed for transportation.

Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks are all hedged in by the spells they choose, but not the Wizard. His schtick is that he gets a magical library of books to pull his spells from, and that list can get enormous, depending on how many scrolls you are able to find/purchase/research in your downtime. (And that is all in full control of the DM, for better or worse.)

Yeah... that's the problem.

The wizard's niche is 'the guy who can do anything'.

So whenever you try and have a class that does literally anything, they're stepping on the wizard's niche and they must prepare to die, obviously.

The fact that that the sorcerer has managed to cling on, Rocky-like, battered and beaten for three editions is kind of amazing. The the fact that the psion keeps coming back despite having its jugular ripped out literally every time is astounding and a credit to its fans' tenacity.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Why would you need a Psion class when the Wizard can already do all the telepathy/telekinesis stuff ON TOP of Fireballs and Wall of Force etc?

Sorry, but you don't, sort of... That is sort of the point for Wizards for me. I don't need 30 classes in D&D, and if I want to play a "Mind Mage" of some sort, I take those spells. If anything, fluff and a decent subclass would fit the bill for me anyway.

I understand others want a more "robust" class for it, but to me it is just overkill. There isn't a large enough design space to support a class and decent subclasses.

Now, if a Psion was something actually different from a spellcaster, that would be cool! Does it bother anyone that Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, et al. can all swing a sword? If not, then why would it bother people if Wizard, Psion, Sorcerer, et al. can all cast telekinesis (or whatever?).

The Wizard default is to gain 2 spell per level. I think the base class should have you learn ONE Spell per level, and each of the specialist gain an additional one FROM THEIR SCHOOL as part of the subclass feature. And guys like the Scribe, the War Mage and the Bladesinger? They get their pick from every school, but only at certain levels instead of every level. You could even have subclasses with thematic blocks of bonus spells early on.

The blanket +2 spells is what leads to the 'not-so specialists' we have now.

Yeah, this I can TOTALLY get behind! We reduced Wizards to one default spell per level. Any more and you have to find them, defeat other Wizards for their spellbooks, etc.

Note that the Sorcerer has ZERO exclusive spells.

They have (just) ONE: Chaos Bolt.

There's not a lot of range between a Psion and and Enchanter when both do "mind control" as spells.

Similarly, there's not a lot of space between an Invoker and a Sorcerer if both are elemental blasters.

The only way to make more iconic ground is to limit the generalist Wizard more.

I agree with some of this. For me the issue is more why make Warlock and Sorcerers their own classes? We made Warlocks a Cleric subclass and Sorcerers a Wizard subclass and they work better to me in that fashion.

Basically, there is only "so much niche stuff" to go around, and you have Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard all basically competing for it...

I think that this was fine when there was no Sorcerer or Warlock and there was only the Magic-User, but the game has changed.

Yep, and in this light, that is a big part of the problem--no matter which way you look at it.

I'm cool with all that, though I know a lot of people wouldn't be because "Don't touch my wizards!"

Augh... Wizard fans are the worse. They just want to play the Bestest Character.

I take a bit (not a lot, mind you!) offense to this as a wizard fan. ;-)

I don't like the "One-Wizard" who can, though spell selection, basically dominate most aspects of the game. Many spells IMO "bend" (if not openly break) the game by making challenges to other classes relatively obsolete. Such spells I would place at higher levels or remove entirely from the game.

It goes back to the poll I did about comparing Fighter to Wizard: (in summary)

Fighter 1 = Wizard 1
Fighter 10 = Wizard 7
Fighter 20 = Wizard 12

WotC took away too many of the balances which kept Wizards in line IMO.

So, I am a BIG wizard fan, and I am certainly more than willing to nerf/retool wizards to make them fit better with other classes regarding niche, power-level, etc.

The wizard's niche is 'the guy who can do anything'.

I agree if the bulk of fan see wizards that way, it is indeed a problem. Our retooled Spell Lists for our Mod removed over 100 spells from Wizards and gave them to other classes. Also, having less overlap of spells between classes (another accomplishment of the Mod) is a big move towards giving different classes a more unique feel IMO.

 

[CleverNickName]

The Warlock is the only Wizard I'll ever need.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The Warlock is the only Wizard I'll ever need.

SHUDDER....

 

[Vaalingrade]

The Warlock is the only Wizard I'll ever need.

But not long for this world seeing as they're driving pretty strong to the hoop to get rid of any vestiges of per-encounter design, presumably because whoever got them to make a good design decision on making custom lineages core in 5.5 did so by wishing on a monkey's paw.