D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XIV: Wizard)

[DND_Reborn]

I genuinely don't understand how a warlock could possibly be a subclass of Cleric and do anything remotely Warlock, or how a Sorcerer could have the base class abilities of the wizard and...not just feel exactly like a wizard.

Pretty easily actually, but probably not to your tastes... They work very well for us:

A warlock is just a cleric with a "patron" instead of a "god".

And the Sorcerer:

 

[TwoSix]

There is a lot that I like about the Warlock, but it also disappoints me.

I would like the warlock far more if it mechanically supported doing the sort of cool things that make up the warlock flavor text like summoning planar entitites to make eldritch bargains. But no, the coolest parts about being a warlock basically gets punted off-screen or to the GM. The summoning abilities are "meh." I almost think that you could change the name and flavor text of the warlock to the sorcerer and leave everything about the warlock mechanically unchanged and it would have a negligible impact.

The Goetics in Invisible Sun, in contrast, perform ritualistic magic that summons angels, demons, and spirits to negotiate pacts in return for magical favors, information, etc. It feels like playing John Constantine, Faust, or Elric of Melniboné. It feels like how I imagine a warlock should play based upon its flavor text.

I mean, you could run an entire setting with the basis for all magic being pacts with supernatural entities. One of my current campaigns runs that way.

 

[TwoSix]

Unfortunate. I actually really like the split-subclass design, and find it one of the few aspects of novel 5e design worth keeping.

And would have worked pretty well for the wizard, actually. Have Patron as Specialty, and Pact as Methodology. Could have used the Orb, Staff, Wand from 4e wizards as methodologies, added a blade specialty for bladesingers, etc. Limited base spell list, but your specialty would allow access to an entire school of magic.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think it should work the other way: the cleric is a warlock with a pact with a god.

Wizard is a warlock with Being a Nerd as the pact.

 

[Ancalagon]

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The Goetics in Invisible Sun, in contrast, perform ritualistic magic that summons angels, demons, and spirits to negotiate pacts in return for magical favors, information, etc. It feels like playing John Constantine, Faust, or Elric of Melniboné. It feels like how I imagine a warlock should play based upon its flavor text.

You could say that about the wizard too - the D&D wizard is not a fantasy wizard. For example, look at this "sage" class from the GLOG:

GLOG Class: the OG Wizard (aka the Sage)

I don't like wizards in D&D very much, but I do really like archetypal wizards from fiction. I think D&D usually doesn't get what makes wiz...

caput-caprae.blogspot.com

Isn't that more of a "classical" wizard? a wise person who guides the heroes?

 

[Undrave]

Mearls has said that if they could do the warlock again, they wouldn't make the distinction between Patron and Pact but create a singular subclass. They would make it less modular. This is why I am very curious about how they will design the One D&D warlock.

Yikes! Way to yuck our yums, ew... That's a TERRIBLE idea!

Unfortunate. I actually really like the split-subclass design, and find it one of the few aspects of novel 5e design worth keeping.

What he said! The split design is SUPER fun! In the random game I played by Fey Bladelock, there was ANOTHER Blade Pact Warlock, but Infernal, and we had very different play style!

All Spellcasters should just be Warlocks.

In fact, I just had an idea for a more 'Wizardly' Warlock patron: The Living Library!

 

[Undrave]

I think it should work the other way: the cleric is a warlock with a pact with a god.

Wizard is a warlock with Being a Nerd as the pact.

We do have the Celestial Warlock!

 

[Vaalingrade]

We do have the Celestial Warlock!

I'm not working with some chump angel. I demand to speak to the manager!

 

[Aldarc]

I mean, you could run an entire setting with the basis for all magic being pacts with supernatural entities. One of my current campaigns runs that way.

Working on this for my Fantasy "Legally Distinct from Renaissance Venice" setting hack for Cortex Prime. Magic requires occultic rituals and negotiating pacts and bargains with entities from the Spirit World (e.g., angels, demons, elementals, spirits, etc.).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Pretty easily actually, but probably not to your tastes... They work very well for us:

A warlock is just a cleric with a "patron" instead of a "god".
View attachment 267518

Why is a warlock channeling divinity? They don’t serve a god. Hell, they don’t necessarily actually serve their patron, but even if they do it isn’t at all the same kind of relationship as a faith-worship relationship.
And there is nothing that points to the type and character of the patron at all, it’s just a word used in the fluff, with identical mechanics regardless.

And the Sorcerer:

View attachment 267519

So a wizard with meta magic. Yeah if that is enough for make a sorcerer for you, fine, though I think you’ve made a wildly overpowered wizard tradition, and probably homebrewed the base wizard a bit, since wizards get subclass at level 2.


I’m glad you’ve got homebrew that works for you.

But those aren’t a warlock and sorcerer IMO, those are just a wizard with meta magic and a cleric with too many subclass features and a focus on thier channel divinity options.

A model I wish the actual cleric had in the base class, but even less representative of the warlock concept than the existing official class.