Dragonlance Dragonlance Philosophy thread

[RuinousPowers]

I do, and I know that the concept of 'perfect balance' is in every way, an impossibility on a global scale, with there being a general flow. Again, reference the quote.

It's funny how you originally insisted the Kingpriest must be evil, and when shown indisputable proof that he was in fact good, your position hasn't changed. Which just goes back to "Color Coded Morality is just team jerseys". By his actions, you couldn't tell the difference.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, its like this.

Good, is Good.
Good, then becomes centralized on a singular view of "Good".
Good, being "Good, and the only Good." then leads to, in the eyes of "Good" everything else being wrong.
Good, seeing wrong, wants to remove wrong.

Its kind of "the perfect is enemy of the good" taken to a self referential looping extreme.

The red one, is the problem inflection point.

again... the problem is that ISN'T what happened.

Good seeing a minor imperfection corrects it through education and uplifting.
Evil seeing a minor imperfection must stomp it out.

again the good has to switch to evil (or at least neutral) before the issue rises.

Good people (by 5e standards of alignment) not only can disagree and argue, but by default would NOT all be a echo chamber.

Now this may go farther, and say its "All Lawful Good people that see things this way with this personality all become an echo chamber" but again that echo chamber while remaining good (and not switching from it) won't automatically get to 'mind enslavement' as the natural conclusion of that alignment (as described in 5e PHB)

what we get is (I assume) a LG king surrounded by (again I assume) LG LN and NG followers making this echo chamber... and somehow the answers that come out sound like LE and NE answers... and the Good Gods come up with a 'reset' as the response (and it doesn't appear it was forced or even they think it was wrong or that it was a compromise with other gods) that sounds somewhere between CN and CE...

 

[Scribe]

By his actions, you couldn't tell the difference.

1. He lost his divine patron. This is a warning.
2. He ordered mind controlling THOUGHT POLICE, to replace his priesthood, which had all lost their powers.
3. The 'real clerics' all got raptured.

I'm 999.9% sure, everyone could tell the difference.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's funny how you originally insisted the Kingpriest must be evil, and when shown indisputable proof that he was in fact good, your position hasn't changed. Which just goes back to "Color Coded Morality is just team jerseys". By his actions, you couldn't tell the difference.

yeah if they were Red Yellow and Blue gods instead of Neutral Good and Evil ones the story would make more sense...

 

[Faolyn]

It isnt just a singular "Good" person. It isnt even a singular "Good" organization. It was many people, multiple organizations, and the view of an entire race (Elves).

This is the point. When "Good" runs the show, and becomes too powerful, too unchallenged, it becomes twisted into well, exactly what the quote says.

I mean its right there...

When "good" runs the show... more people have freedoms, more people are free to be themselves, more people are taken care of, more people are healthier and happier, fewer people are suffering or marginalized, fewer people are hurting others...

If your idea of good running the show means that they will harm people... that's not good. It may call itself good, but it's not.

 

[RuinousPowers]

1. He lost his divine patron. This is a warning.
2. He ordered mind controlling THOUGHT POLICE, to replace his priesthood, which had all lost their powers.
3. The 'real clerics' all got raptured.

I'm 999.9% sure, everyone could tell the difference.

But he is still LG, and you were wrong.

And Paladine called down a preemptive strike against his own followers because he was afraid of a future evil happening. Nice guy.

 

[Scribe]

Good seeing a minor imperfection corrects it through education and uplifting.
Evil seeing a minor imperfection must stomp it out.

OK, we agree.

again the good has to switch to evil (or at least neutral) before the issue rises.

Good people (by 5e standards of alignment) not only can disagree and argue, but by default would NOT all be a echo chamber.

I think this is our issue here. They dont just immediately 'switch to evil', but indeed "the road to hell..." and all that right?

Kingpriest.
Knights.
Elves.

All were Good. All then lead to the same road of intolerance, distrust, and "its my way or the highway". Not that they all agreed with eachother, but they all became a bit too full of themselves.

what we get is (I assume) a LG king surrounded by (again I assume) LG LN and NG followers making this echo chamber... and somehow the answers that come out sound like LE and NE answers... and the Good Gods come up with a 'reset' as the response (and it doesn't appear it was forced or even they think it was wrong or that it was a compromise with other gods) that sounds somewhere between CN and CE...

What it looks like to me, is a LG King, loses himself, and through his actions has an alignment shift to LE. Evil in the world is being driven to extinction, and the pendulum cannot swing.

Fizban's quote still holds.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1. He lost his divine patron. This is a warning.
2. He ordered mind controlling THOUGHT POLICE, to replace his priesthood, which had all lost their powers.
3. The 'real clerics' all got raptured.

I'm 999.9% sure, everyone could tell the difference.

again... so at this point he is evil doing evil things...

BUT the king who ended up evil doing evil things is the example given of too much power for good.

DO you see where the wrong team is being blamed.


It's like when someone enters an edition war really gunning for 2e being the best (I can understand this even if I don't agree) and argues against 5e being the best... and the 5e being the best argument is that 4e is the problem and his proof is the guy not talking about 4e but 2e...

If the conversation started 2 days earlier with the guy who now (2days later) saying something good about 4e and that he played it a few times but wasn't his cup of tea, but he would take it over 5e... that STILL doesn't make him representee of 4e. Even though at one point he was on team 4e (said he liked it) the argument he is making about 2e has nothing to do with 4e...


the problem was the king WAS GOOD once, turned EVIL, but still thought himself good (not an issue some of my favorited villains see themselves as the hero) THEN as EVIL caused the issues the gods wanted to stop... so not representing team good anymore (even if he thinks he is or wants to be)

 

[Scribe]

the problem was the king WAS GOOD once, turned EVIL, but still thought himself good (not an issue some of my favorited villains see themselves as the hero) THEN as EVIL caused the issues the gods wanted to stop... so not representing team good anymore (even if he thinks he is or wants to be)

100% I think we are coming to the same page here. I agree with this completely.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think this is our issue here. They dont just immediately 'switch to evil', but indeed "the road to hell..." and all that right?

I completely agree. I have written this into my worlds, I have even played it out twice in my 30years as a player. I have (at the risk of getting to far out) seen it in the real world. Sometimes good people go bad. Sometimes they don't realize (I might even say most times they don't see it) and think themselves good while doing harm.
(and that's before we get into crazy evil that thinks they are doing good through evil)

Kingpriest.
Knights.
Elves.

All were Good. All then lead to the same road of intolerance, distrust, and "its my way or the highway". Not that they all agreed with eachother, but they all became a bit too full of themselves.

All WERE good. they WERE showing what happens... all got corrupted and switched (and it is to a varying degree, I would argue the good knights went way more LN not Evil)

here is the disagreement. Once the switch happens (and it is very likely not an overnight light switch being thrown) it is no longer "too much good" it is now neutral or evil...

so the examples aren't "Hey good made things bad" its "Sometimes people start out good and become evil and evil makes stuff bad"

What it looks like to me, is a LG King, loses himself, and through his actions has an alignment shift to LE. Evil in the world is being driven to extinction, and the pendulum cannot swing.

again a GREAT example of too much evil in the world

Fizban's quote still holds.

except it doesn't because he blames good for evil acts (or says the king was still good doing evil, I don't like that reading any better though)