D&D (2024) Feats still optional in 1D&D: and other notes from the survey results

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I can't answer for Uni, but I have asked the same question before and my reason is this: first level feats are specifically different. They are intended to be less powerful than general feats. Whether they can be taken later or not, they shouldn't be because they are intentionally not as good. They are specifically different. Enough so that I think the name "feat" is misleading for them and that they should be renamed. Unless they specifically prohibit 1st level feats from being taken at higher levels (which I doubt) it creates confusion because 1st lvl feat =/= feats.
Isn't Skilled one of the choices you can take? Skilled is a perfectly cromulent feat for most games, and quite powerful for any game that is more skill-focused than combat-focused. (I wouldn't want to use 5e for such a game, because it provides almost no support for such an approach, but it is something people do.) I don't see this hard-and-fast gap you're alleging here.

Especially because, based on the playtest documents, Lucky is a first-level feat. You know, the one feat everyone considers stupidly overpowered and which gets constant demands for it to be banned? (Even though it's nowhere near as powerful as Elven Accuracy.) Oh, and Magic Initiate, a feat quite frequently taken for its charop potential, and which has only gotten stronger in the playtest, because the unified spell list plus the decoupling of casting stats means a Druid can pick Arcane and still use Wis, or a Wizard can pick Divine and still use Int.

So...no. I'm not buying that "1st-level feat" means "weak, incomplete feat that isn't as good as proper, high-level feats." One of the best feats in the whole game is currently classified as a "1st-level feat" in "One D&D."
 

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dave2008

Legend
Isn't Skilled one of the choices you can take? Skilled is a perfectly cromulent feat for most games, and quite powerful for any game that is more skill-focused than combat-focused. (I wouldn't want to use 5e for such a game, because it provides almost no support for such an approach, but it is something people do.) I don't see this hard-and-fast gap you're alleging here.

Especially because, based on the playtest documents, Lucky is a first-level feat. You know, the one feat everyone considers stupidly overpowered and which gets constant demands for it to be banned? (Even though it's nowhere near as powerful as Elven Accuracy.) Oh, and Magic Initiate, a feat quite frequently taken for its charop potential, and which has only gotten stronger in the playtest, because the unified spell list plus the decoupling of casting stats means a Druid can pick Arcane and still use Wis, or a Wizard can pick Divine and still use Int.

So...no. I'm not buying that "1st-level feat" means "weak, incomplete feat that isn't as good as proper, high-level feats." One of the best feats in the whole game is currently classified as a "1st-level feat" in "One D&D."
I am not going to argue about the execution; however, they (the designers) specifically stated 1st level feats are supposed to be less powerful. Now, if the final product doesn't actually achieve that goal then my argument is of course complete rubbish. I am talking conceptually here.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Because they are intended to be different, the only thing that is not different is the name.
....but they aren't. Skilled is a "One D&D" "1st-level feat." Lucky is another. Magic Initiate is a third. These are feats. They are not "background traits" that have been somehow tuned up slightly. They are straight-up, explicitly, feats. Calling them not-feats with "One D&D" won't change the fact that they were feats for a decade beforehand.
 

....but they aren't. Skilled is a "One D&D" "1st-level feat." Lucky is another. Magic Initiate is a third. These are feats. They are not "background traits" that have been somehow tuned up slightly. They are straight-up, explicitly, feats. Calling them not-feats with "One D&D" won't change the fact that they were feats for a decade beforehand.
I get where you are coming from
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
....but they aren't. Skilled is a "One D&D" "1st-level feat." Lucky is another. Magic Initiate is a third. These are feats. They are not "background traits" that have been somehow tuned up slightly. They are straight-up, explicitly, feats. Calling them not-feats with "One D&D" won't change the fact that they were feats for a decade beforehand.
So is it really just about the word "feat" itself? Would removing that word actually change how you feel about whatever mechanics are given to players?

I mean right now they could write in the playtest that Backgrounds give you the following:

2 Ability Scores raised by +2 for one and +1 for the other; or three scores raised by +1
2 Skill proficiencies
1 Language
1 Feat

OR

2 Ability Scores raised by +2 for one and +1 for the other; or three scores raised by +1
5 Skill proficiencies
1 Language

These two descriptions can denote the exact same Background, except one doesn't use the word "feat". The second one merely incorporates the mechanics of one of the feats directly into the description. Do you consider these equally bad, or is the first once worse because it uses a word that is supposed to be optional? Would having the second description in the game be better in your eyes?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
These two descriptions can denote the exact same Background, except one doesn't use the word "feat". The second one merely incorporates the mechanics of one of the feats directly into the description. Do you consider these equally bad, or is the first once worse because it uses a word that is supposed to be optional? Would having the second description in the game be better in your eyes?
Neither of them is "bad."* I personally want feats to be NOT optional. I want feats to be readily accessible.

What I do not like is people trying to have their cake and eat it too. The second example you gave would avoid making feats non-optional; but it would do so by enforcing one (and only one) benefit from backgrounds, which is not the point of the changes. The point of the changes is to enable a meaningful, solid mechanical benefit.

That's my problem. It is extremely clear that the new background rules:
  1. Intentionally want to make modular benefits that can be, in part, constructed by the player
  2. Want these benefits to be solid, something more than just a ribbon like existing background benefits
  3. Are in fact actually a change compared to the existing background rules.
These efforts to pretend that the new rules are somehow not using feats, or somehow using "lesser" feats that don't count as feats, and therefore don't actually count as a real change, are both confusing and frustrating. They seem to be openly denying either that feats are the thing being provided, or that providing feats in this way is a clear and obvious change compared to the way things used to be done.

Feats in "One D&D" are not optional. I, personally, think this is a step in the right direction. I think it's a pathetically small one, but it is a step in the right direction. I am confused and frustrated by posters pretending that it either somehow isn't an actual change because these aren't real feats, or that it couldn't be a change because feats are totally what backgrounds always provided all along. Both of these statements seem to be openly and intentionally denying something obviously true: either that "One D&D" first-level feats are, in fact, feats in every sense of the word, and run the gamut from golden to garbage); or that backgrounds in 5e currently already do provide (non-selectable) feats or the equivalent in addition to the baseline 2 skills, when they emphatically do not.

*Though if you're asking of my personal preference between the two, it would be the first. I like feats, so effectively forcing me to only choose the Skilled feat when I could have at least had the option to choose others is a clearly inferior offering, because, as I have said many times in this thread, I like feats.
 

I'm not sure why they think double speak is the best way to market the game... "it's not a new edition it's just new classes new feats and new species that replace the old classes feats and races" then "feats are still optional but you have to get a feature at 1st level that is a feat"
Why not just say 1D&D is and be straight forward.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Why not just say 1D&D is and be straight forward.
As is the case in almost all business/branding/marketing stuff:

Reputation and perception >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Facts

It doesn't matter that the resulting product is going to almost certainly be the 5.5e (or "5.50" or whatever) that everyone's been expecting for the past 2-3 years. It doesn't matter that all this circumlocution looks horrible and sounds stupid and requires tortured logic.

Preserving the appearance and perception is paramount. Image is everything. Facts are inconvenient weights one must deftly navigate around.
 


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