D&D General The DM Shortage

[MichaelSomething]

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about; OSRians seem to operate under the impression that the OSR is the solution to EVERYTHING, and the only reason someone doesn't like the OSR is because they don't understand or don't know enough about the OSR. It couldn't possibly be that... they actually want something else! Dun-dun-DUUUUUUNNNNN!

I think the clear null hypothesis is that the OSR style is clearly a smaller plurality than other styles, and always will be. The majority of players want something other than what the OSR offers.

I'm not making this conclusion based on this supposed data, though—it's one I've been noodling around with since before the OSR even existed or had a label at all. Frankly, I've been noodling around with this idea since before Tracy Hickman started at TSR and blew out the bank by catering to demand that clearly existed for something other than what TSR had been doing up until that point. I do think that Ben's data, for whatever its worth, supports the idea that the null hypothesis is that doubling down on OSRian tropes is NOT the answer to the problem, because the reason that 5e players aren't playing OSR games NOW is because they don't want to play OSR games.

UPDATE: Let me add a clarification, though. I do think that 5e does a number of things poorly, however, with regards to new players and how to engage them and how to encourage them to DM. I think that "modern" D&D could learn a number of things from the OSR, and unlearn a number of really bad habits that have been kicking around since the release of AD&D, if not even sooner, especially with regards to growing the audience and maintaining the audience. But that's a far cry from suggesting that the OSR is the cure for whatever ails you.

And as a matter of full disclosure, I play neither 5e nor OSR games. My own style is one that I call "old fashioned, but not old school" and my preferred game is quite rules-lite, but also very efficient and well written. Something like Microlite would be my Holy Grail of gaming, being played in a manner that is probably best reflected by Perkins' DM Experience column from back in the 4e days.

How about give players the choice between OSR versus no game at all? That seems to have worked for @bloodtide at least!

I see the DM shortage in my part of the world.

Online, you will see plenty of players looking for a game, but few DMs.

In real life, it is even more extreme. Both the library and game shop have lots of ads looking for a DM. any ad looking for players is filled fast. Go to the Game Keep on a weekend you might see two games being played at tables....and often ten to twenty players hanging around looking for a game. But no DMs.

It's so bad....players that hate my hard fun old school game style and overly love the D&D direction and can't wait until they can play 5.5E/6E and not have a fantasy race anymore.....are playing in game run by me. They can't find a DM, so they game with me.

 

[overgeeked]

I think, broadly speaking, that the two great Hickman mistakes that that persist to this day are A) trying to draw the PCs through a story instead of allowing them to create a story through play, and B) wanting the world to adhere to some level.of "realism" or "verisimilitude".

While I agree with your A, I also think it's more that people confuse the last point, rather badly. As explained here:

At its core, D&D is a game and it relies heavily upon player agency and random die roll outcomes. Being "precious" about some story you want to emerge from that context makes no sense.

Exactly. If D&D were a storygame it would look wildly, wildly different. Speaking of, I just posted a related thread over in the One D&D sub.

 

[overgeeked]

How about give players the choice between OSR versus no game at all? That seems to have worked for @bloodtide at least!

Why not? It works for most 5E players and referees. So many people want to play other games and yet there aren't enough players because 5E sucks all the oxygen out of the room.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think, broadly speaking, that the two great Hickman mistakes that that persist to this day are A) trying to draw the PCs through a story instead of allowing them to create a story through play, and B) wanting the world to adhere to some level.of "realism" or "verisimilitude".

At its core, D&D is a game and it relies heavily upon player agency and random die roll outcomes. Being "precious" about some story you want to emerge from that context makes no sense.

Why even have a GM at that point when everyone can get together & swap stories of how awesome their own OC Neotrad character is in a totally isolated world that caters only to the story the player with the talking stick is telling?

 

[Reynard]

Why even have a GM at that point when everyone can get together & swap stories of how awesome their own OC Neotrad character is in a totally isolated world that caters only to the story the player with the talking stick is telling?

I'm not sure what you mean or how it relates to the part you bolded. Please explain.

 

[Vaalingrade]

How about give players the choice between OSR versus no game at all? That seems to have worked for @bloodtide at least!

No game.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not sure what you mean or how it relates to the part you bolded. Please explain.

I've run story/narrative games like fate & did so for most of 4e's lifespan, d&d is not in any way a story or narrative game because the power that gives a GM would send chills down the spines of the most meatgrindery funnel authors. At 1:21:20 here Mearls even describes how 5e almost adopted elements for that. Without "the world adhering to some level of realism & verisimilitude" you get this...

 

[Reynard]

I've run story/narrative games like fate & did so for most of 4e's lifespan, d&d is not in any way a story or narrative game because the power that gives a GM would send chills down the spines of the most meatgrindery funnel authors. At 1:21:20 here Mearls even describes how 5e almost adopted elements for that. Without "the world adhering to some level of realism & verisimilitude" you get this...

I just don't agree with that. You can play the game focused on things that aren't verisimilitude and still have fun.

 

[overgeeked]

You can play the game focused on things that aren't verisimilitude and still have fun.

Yes, but there is a wide range of preferences. Some people want verisimilitude and some don't. You can't really cater to both at the same time.

 

[tetrasodium]

I just don't agree with that. You can play the game focused on things that aren't verisimilitude and still have fun.

"You can play the game focused on things that aren't verisimilitude"... How? What does that gameplay look likein actual play? What are those "things"? Those are critically relevant questions while discussing what exactly "the modern style" is if not simply a self referential renaming of the hickman revolution.

In discussing how "the modern style" is or is or is not just an effort to sever the hickman revolution from the gameplay & mechanics it was written for I gave you what might very well be the most well known example of someone creating a story in a "world that does not adhere to realism & verisimilitude" but your response reads pretty much we don't agree, it can be done with an implied go figure out how.