Worlds of Design: Leveling vs. Training

We previously covered why training systems were abandoned in D&D. Here's what replaced it.

We previously covered why training systems were abandoned in D&D. Here's what replaced it.

superhero-4410043_960_720.jpg

Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

“For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them.” ― Aristotle

Congratulations on Advancing, Pay Up!​

I’ve always thought one of the worst mistakes in AD&D (not repeated in later editions) was the requirement that when you reach enough experience points to rise in level you have to pay somebody an exorbitant sum to “train” reach that new level. I suppose these rules were an attempt to take excess money out of the game, but if applied as written it turned adventurers into mere money grubbers (much worse than treasure-hunters) in order to acquire enough money for training. I want a game of heroes, not money-grubbers, and I doubt that Gary Gygax wanted adventurers to be money-grubbers when he wrote AD&D.

As I discussed in the previous article, it was also wrong-headed because if you did the things that enabled you to survive and prosper then why would you need somebody to train you? You don't teach or even train people in order to somehow mysteriously activate what they already know/know how to do. You teach them in order to provide a substitute for real-world experience (If you're a good teacher, that is) People learn best from experience, and by talking with other practitioners in order to learn from them, and as you get more experience, you improve.

And then there's the chicken and egg question: where did the original trainer come from? There must be a way to learn these things successfully without being trained by someone else.

Fundamentally, we have two competing systems: a level-based system that uses the word “experience” to reflect characters’ development through adventuring, and a more monetary system that requires payment to advance.

The Devolution of Training in D&D​

Subsequent editions of Dungeons & Dragons gradually phased this requirement out, for good reason. I suspect the training rule was dropped in later editions because the designers realized it turns the most noble adventurers (including monks and paladins) into mercenaries, especially when experience points are given for gold. I didn’t need a rule to extract cash from adventurers. I do not give away big treasures, as treasure does not provide experience points in my games.

In AD&D 2nd Edition, training was relegated to an optional rule:
Characters must pay a tutor around 100 gp per level per week, with the duration based on the instructor's Wisdom score. The character must then pass a Wisdom or Intelligence check to level up, retrying each week until successful. The tutor must be a character of the same class and of higher level.
In D&D 3rd Edition, it was assumed characters practiced their skills during downtime, with an optional rule of working with an instructor at 50 gp per week. Skills took one week per skill rank and feats took two weeks. Class abilities and spells also required expenditure of time and money. By 4th Edition, training was removed entirely (with a reference to proficiency replacing training).

Why it Went Away​

There’s nothing inherently wrong with leveling up rules. D&D was intended to be relatively simple. Leveling is meant to be an abstraction in which characters are finally getting a tangible in-game benefit from their experiences that they would have achieved gradually in a real world.

This sudden jump up a level is similar to how hit points are treated in D&D. You don't lose capability as you accumulate damage, but when you get to zero hit points, you’re suddenly incapacitated. Later systems have strayed from the simple hit point approach to cause more nuanced damage, so that characters suffer different penalties than just hit points over time.

This waning effectiveness has its roots in wargames with unit “steps” (including many block games). Damaged units decrease capabilities in discrete increments, because that’s the best we can do with non-computer games. But some designers think that’s better than a unit being fully capable until suddenly it’s dead, as was true in all the older Avalon Hill games such as Stalingrad and Afrika Korps.

More modern games reject this idea of leveling entirely, preferring instead to allow characters to focus on different skills from a pool and increase those as they see fit. It requires considerably more bookkeeping, which is why you see this style of advancement more often in computer role-playing games. Computers make it much easier to keep track of the minute details—and of percentages.

Stepped or Nuanced?​

If we were willing to accept the additional record-keeping and complexity, we could have gradual decreases in abilities with injuries sustained for RPG characters. Similarly, we could have characters increase in one skill or feat before they fully level up. And in some RPG rulesets that is the case, but not in intended-to-be-simple D&D.

D&D codified technical skill with the Proficiency Bonus in 5th Edition, a modifier that is uniformly applied to many aspects of a character’s capabilities. While not a one-to-one equivalent of a character’s level, the Proficiency Bonus replaces much of the fiddly bits of how good a character is at combat, or spellcasting, or avoiding damage by tying it all to one number.

Conversely, there are some rules that restore degrees of advancement or failure in between levels. 5th Edition reserves training for learning new languages or tool proficiencies independent of levels (250 days at a cost of 1 gp per day). Optional rules added further complications and costs in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

On the damage side, 5E has exhaustion levels, which provide a separate track of penalties from hit point loss alone (and can still result in character death!). Speaking of death, there are now death saves, with three fails accumulating in the death of a character.

Despite the relatively simple approach D&D has to success and failure, it’s clear players crave more nuance in how their characters develop or die. We see this in more modern RPGs and in D&D’s gradual removal of training as a requirement for advancement.

Your Turn: What subsystems do you use for advancement or failure in your games?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Congratulations on Advancing, Pay Up!​

I’ve always thought one of the worst mistakes in AD&D (not repeated in later editions) was the requirement that when you reach enough experience points to rise in level you have to pay somebody an exorbitant sum to “train” reach that new level.
Of course, and it makes sense.

You're not paying someone to train you in what you already know, you're paying someone to train you in the theory of what you don't yet know, which you then take out into the field and put into practice.
I suppose these rules were an attempt to take excess money out of the game, but if applied as written it turned adventurers into mere money grubbers (much worse than treasure-hunters) in order to acquire enough money for training. I want a game of heroes, not money-grubbers, and I doubt that Gary Gygax wanted adventurers to be money-grubbers when he wrote AD&D.
With the amount of treasure 1e modules tended to give out, characters not having enough money for training was rarely if ever an issue.

The real mistake was Gygax's dumb "rating" rules that were used to set the cost of training; not the training itself nor that it came at a cost.
As I discussed in the previous article, it was also wrong-headed because if you did the things that enabled you to survive and prosper then why would you need somebody to train you? You don't teach or even train people in order to somehow mysteriously activate what they already know/know how to do.
Exactly - you teach them that which they don't yet know how to do. You've got it backwards; I think because you're ignoring that the cycle doesn't start with 1st-level adventuring, it starts with pre-1st-level training (which we never play through, we just assume it's already happened).

A fighter learns a new series of moves during training (mechanical impact: an uptick in BAB to use the 3e term) then puts that training to use during the next tour of adventuring.
And then there's the chicken and egg question: where did the original trainer come from? There must be a way to learn these things successfully without being trained by someone else.
Yes, but advancing without training takes much longer than the average adventurer wants to spend. 1e had some guidelines for self-training, and it's trivially easy to invent something as a houserule.
Fundamentally, we have two competing systems: a level-based system that uses the word “experience” to reflect characters’ development through adventuring, and a more monetary system that requires payment to advance.
They work together seamlessly.

Take real-world sailing courses. You spend the first half of each lesson in a classroom learning the theory of what you're about to do. Then you get out on the water and put what you just learned into practice, gaining experience in whatever it is you were just told about in the classroom. Next day it's something different, building on what was learned yesterday, and so it goes.

It's the same principle with character training, only over a longer time. The character spends a few weeks in a "classroom" (which might be a training yard, a temple, a lab, a back alley, etc. dependent on class) then goes out in the field and puts what was just learned into practice.

The Devolution of Training in D&D​

Subsequent editions of Dungeons & Dragons gradually phased this requirement out, for good reason. I suspect the training rule was dropped in later editions because the designers realized it turns the most noble adventurers (including monks and paladins) into mercenaries, especially when experience points are given for gold.
Adventurers are mercenaries.
I didn’t need a rule to extract cash from adventurers. I do not give away big treasures, as treasure does not provide experience points in my games.
I've never used xp-for-gp but still have training and still give out lots of treasure (and destroy lots too - easy come, easy go). :)

Why it Went Away​

There’s nothing inherently wrong with leveling up rules. D&D was intended to be relatively simple. Leveling is meant to be an abstraction in which characters are finally getting a tangible in-game benefit from their experiences that they would have achieved gradually in a real world.
It's a not-bad abstraction of the moment - which happens to all of us at some point - when in whatever field or class or whatever you suddenly realize "I know this stuff!", when it all fits together.
Your Turn: What subsystems do you use for advancement or failure in your games?
Very similar to 1e only without the DM character-rating garbage. I have mechanisms in place to handle characters who cannot or will not train, mostly revolving around their advancing at half rate. If a character gets enough xp to bump while still in the field, xp gain doesn't stop dead like Gygax has it, but if you get too far into the new level before training a penalty system kicks in to slow advancement down (flip side: training gets cheaper if this happens).

I also have mechanisms in place to handle the (very slow!) advancement of "stay-at-home" temple clerics, lab mages, career soldiers, etc., in order to explain how non-adventurers can occasionally get to high level in a class.

The one big beneficial element you conveniently left out of your discourse here is that having to stop and train up now and then forces characters to take some downtime, allowing more opportunity to engage with parts of the setting not directly connected to or part of an adventure. It also sometimes forces some very realistic, if not always pleasant, choices on parties*: whether to turn back and train up and in so doing give the enemy more time, or keep going untrained; and I like that.

* - more relevant if-when not everyone bumps at the same time.
 

Voadam

Legend
Despite the relatively simple approach D&D has to success and failure, it’s clear players crave more nuance in how their characters develop or die. We see this in more modern RPGs and in D&D’s gradual removal of training as a requirement for advancement.
I think this is more shown in 3e to 5e's focus on having choices for level up advancement. In AD&D and Basic and OD&D you made your class choice at 1st level then you might have a choice of proficiency come up every couple of levels but otherwise your level ups involve no choice, just advancement. Technically some humans could choose to switch class under certain rare conditions too.

In 5e it is subclass choices, little features like weapon style choices, and so on. Every four levels you get a choice of stat bump of your choice or (optionally) a feat. A bunch of classes get spells known to pick at level up.

3e started this with feats as a big deal and having multiclassing options at every level. 3.5 worked to reduce dead levels in classes and worked in some more options like ranger weapon style choices. 4e had power or feat or stat bump choices every level and everybody had paragon paths and epic destinies to choose at tier bumps. 5e is a bit less choice at advancement than 4e but choice is still a bigger focus than in AD&D.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think this is more shown in 3e to 5e's focus on having choices for level up advancement. In AD&D and Basic and OD&D you made your class choice at 1st level then you might have a choice of proficiency come up every couple of levels but otherwise your level ups involve no choice, just advancement. Technically some humans could choose to switch class under certain rare conditions too.

In 5e it is subclass choices, little features like weapon style choices, and so on. Every four levels you get a choice of stat bump of your choice or (optionally) a feat. A bunch of classes get spells known to pick at level up.

3e started this with feats as a big deal and having multiclassing options at every level. 3.5 worked to reduce dead levels in classes and worked in some more options like ranger weapon style choices. 4e had power or feat or stat bump choices every level and everybody had paragon paths and epic destinies to choose at tier bumps. 5e is a bit less choice at advancement than 4e but choice is still a bigger focus than in AD&D.
All true; and all of those new abilities would (in theory) need training. :)

Whether the corollary development (that of changing player focus from character play to character build) is a feature or a bug is its own argument.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I’ve always thought one of the worst mistakes in AD&D (not repeated in later editions) was the requirement that when you reach enough experience points to rise in level you have to pay somebody an exorbitant sum to “train” reach that new level. I suppose these rules were an attempt to take excess money out of the game, but if applied as written it turned adventurers into mere money grubbers (much worse than treasure-hunters) in order to acquire enough money for training. I want a game of heroes, not money-grubbers, and I doubt that Gary Gygax wanted adventurers to be money-grubbers when he wrote AD&D.
I'm not sure that I agree with this. Gygaxian-style adventuring always seemed to be very inspired by the pulps, which had characters who were often "rogues on the make" as it were. While not venal or selfish to the point of villainy, they were often individuals who were "in it" for the promise of a big payoff (though they often had an inner goodness that compelled them to act nobly in the face of injustice).

Now, that's not the case for all characters, of course. Clerics, paladins, and similar individuals were designed to be of a more noble pursuit. But even then, the need for money was still present, even if those characters didn't desire it for selfish purposes. Paladins weren't expected to ignore wealth, for instance; they simply had to donate it once they'd acquired it. Questing to find a large payout so as to save an orphanage that was going bankrupt was certainly acceptable, even if not quite what most players think of when they imagine a heroic knight.

On a more general note, I personally liked the training idea because it struck me as the natural counterpoint to the "XP for GP" rule of gaining experience. The PCs gain experience from acquiring treasure, but then the treasure has to go somewhere, otherwise you end up with the "piles of useless gold" problem that you hear about in 5E (all the more so since magic items were constructed with exotic ingredients, rather than gold expenditure).

Training, which further helped to model how the PCs gained new knowledge besides on-the-job learning (which is often unsatisfying anyway; if a rogue doesn't pick any pockets over the course of gaining a level, why does his pick pockets percentage chance go up? Because a senior rogue trained him), answers that nicely. The PCs are once again lacking in both the necessary gold and XP to reach the next level, so now have an in-game and meta-game reason to go adventuring again.
And then there's the chicken and egg question: where did the original trainer come from? There must be a way to learn these things successfully without being trained by someone else.
Well, since the gods themselves have class levels, I'd say that they were the "original" trainers for the first mortals who needed help leveling up (though I suppose that has the awkward question of why the gods would want to be paid to help those first mortals develop their skills).
 
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Voadam

Legend
I'm not sure that I agree with this. Gygaxian-style adventuring always seemed to be very inspired by the pulps, which had characters who were often "rogues on the make" as it were. While not venal or selfish to the point of villainy, they were often individuals who were "in it" for the promise of a big payoff (though they often had an inner goodness that compelled them to act nobly in the face of injustice).
I very much agree with this, but I don't think this leads to training montages.

The Grey Mouser's back story is that he hates being a wizard student so much that he takes up a life of thievery at which he is great, both sneaking and swordfighting and which is the core of his adventuring life. I don't really recall him being trained again and again by another thief (though it has been a number of years since I read the stories). I remember him specifically being outside the thief guild system. His ultimate patron is a big mysterious alien wizard thing who does not teach him adventuring skills but more points him at opportunities. I do remember him living a luxurious lifestyle when he was flush though.

Similarly Conan is known more for spending his gold on carousing than on paying swordmasters to teach him fighting techniques.

I think a spend gold on carousing for xp system would have been more appropriate for the genre than a spend gold on trainers system.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The Grey Mouser's back story is that he hates being a wizard student so much that he takes up a life of thievery at which he is great, both sneaking and swordfighting and which is the core of his adventuring life. I don't really recall him being trained again and again by another thief (though it has been a number of years since I read the stories). I remember him specifically being outside the thief guild system.
Well, according to Deities and Demigods 1E, he's already a 15th-level thief, which means that by that point he's been self-training for a while (as per page 86 of the DMG):

AD-D-self-training.jpg

Similarly Conan is known more for spending his gold on carousing than on paying swordmasters to teach him fighting techniques.

I think a spend gold on carousing for xp system would have been more appropriate for the genre than a spend gold on trainers system.
Yeah, that idea has been around for a while (and it's one I like quite a bit). I think the first time I saw it was back in the "Orgies, Inc." article by Jon Pickens in Dragon #10.

EDIT: There's a great look at the history of carousing as a method of XP over on this blog:

 
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Voadam

Legend
Yeah, that idea has been around for a while (and it's one I like quite a bit). I think the first time I saw it was back in the "Orgies, Inc." article by Jon Pickens in Dragon #10.
Same, once I got the Dragon CD. I don't use xp anymore, but it struck a chord as a thematically appropriate system.

EDIT: There's a great look at the history of carousing as a method of XP over on this blog:

Thanks for the link, I was not aware of the non-dragon systems. I own the Fever-Dreaming Marlinko PDF but have not gone through it enough to know it has individual carousing tables for each city quarter. It does not surprise me that Slavic Acid Fantasy themed city has them though.
 


In a system with dual requirements to level up (you need experience points and training), the best way was, imho, to have them able to "pre-spend" the money needed for training to level up (and burn the necessary time). In our games no one instantly levelled up. It took time and you were accumulating GP the entire time. When you know how much it's going to cost for training to level up you can start spending before you hit the experience needed to level up. If they wanted to wait, they could spend it after they met the XP requirement, but players want to level up as quickly as possible. This forces players to plan ahead. I was familiar with Arneson's system from the Judges Guild "First fantasy Campaign". It was a good way to burn money, but I preferred to tie it to training. You could alter the time required by hiring / finding a tutor / master or do it slower by "self-improvement". It took the same amount of money either way, but you could short cut the time needed by spending a lot of money on a master to train you (if you could find one). Eventually I fell off the training wagon as a DM, but this worked for a while and made sense (to me anyway).
 

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