Willow - Official Teaser Trailer

[Paul Farquhar]

And yet she had to force herself on him after he rejected her by saying he had real feelings for Elora.

Now, Elora plays with the flute of the guy who actually did turn on the rest of the party earlier in the show. Apparently, that's forgivable but being held captive, drugged with weeks of worm juice, and magically brainwashed is held against Airik.

Not to mention that Airik's natural impulse was to try to save Kit (when she fell into the wormjuice lake) even when he was in the personal presence of the Crone.

Attraction to people who get by on superficial charm does tend to fade when the source of charm is removed. And love has nothing to do with "who is the better person".

 

[Argyle King]

Attraction to people who get by on superficial charm does tend to fade when the source of charm is removed. And love has nothing to do with "who is the better person".

I agree that being a better person doesn't equal love.

My original comments were mainly 2 points of inquiry: 1) was the outcome of being "rescued" better for him and 2) in a show which has included social messaging, what message does it send to show that a young man tried to change his ways and tried to be better in the face of captivity and torture only to be rejected by those who "love" him?

Exploring that in a future season would be interesting. However, my guess is that it will be glossed over, in favor of highlighting other characters. So, with that being the case, the questions still linger.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

1) was the outcome of being "rescued" better for him

I think not being a mind controlled puppet is quite obviously better!

2) in a show which has included social messaging, what message does it send to show that a young man tried to change his ways and tried to be better in the face of captivity and torture only to be rejected by those who "love" him?

We only have Kat's word for his previous behaviour, and the opinions of siblings are notoriously biased. It seems to me that he was in love with the process of falling in love, and once the initial excitement wore off tended to lose interest. So being dumped first may well be exactly the lesson he needed to learn.

And the show has much larger loose ends. Graydon seems to be set up as the antagonist in the next series. Did he really murder his brother as a child? Was he possessed? Is he multiclassed as a GOO warlock? His family name is Hastur, so it wouldn't surprise me*. And his kingdom has a decidedly shady history of slave ownership. Talking of which, what about Jade? We have her backstory, but it hasn't actually lead anywhere yet.



*If you check out the last names of the character's there is a lot nominative determinism going on in this show (another D&Dish feature). Willow Ufgood is good, Jade Claymore has green eyes and a big sword, Boorman is a boorish man, etc

 

[Ruin Explorer]

We only have Kat's word for his previous behaviour, and the opinions of siblings are notoriously biased. It seems to me that he was in love with the process of falling in love, and once the initial excitement wore off tended to lose interest. So being dumped first may well be exactly the lesson he needed to learn.

That's what I took from it.

And the show has much larger loose ends. Graydon seems to be set up as the antagonist in the next series. Did he really murder his brother as a child? Was he possessed? Is he multiclassed as a GOO warlock? His family name is Hastur, so it wouldn't surprise me*. And his kingdom has a decidedly shady history of slave ownership. Talking of which, what about Jade? We have her backstory, but it hasn't actually lead anywhere yet.

Graydon has shown he's pretty astute and reasonably good at maintaining a deceptive front (neither of which makes him a bad person), so I'm not sure he's going to necessarily buy into Evil-Elora's whole deal, but at the same time, given she was backed by a horde of monsters, his sense of self-preservation may be enough that he plays along with her until he has a chance to backstab her or get away. Or he may start off doing that and then the fact that his friends seem to have abandoned him may cause him to become conflicted or whatever. I dunno if he's going to be the main antagonist though.

I strongly suspect he was possessed as a child and is possibly particularly vulnerable to being possessed again - quite likely his family has some kind of ongoing pact with some being that keeps them in power.

Jade's story presumably involves reconciling the Bonereapers with er... the castle-people. Honestly, from the scenario described it seems hard to entirely blame the castle-people though the show seemed to want us to, at least a bit, because there was no moment when the Bonereapers appeared to seek peace, just they were attacking, then they were fleeing after being defeated, and still appeared to be engaged in banditry and so on.

 

[Argyle King]

I think not being a mind controlled puppet is quite obviously better!

That depends on perspective.

He's had an entire childhood of being second place to his sister and falling into the role we saw him in at the beginning of the show -a role which was constructed for him by constantly being fed low expectations and the idea that was all he could be.

From another perspective, what we see is an attempt to evolve a character from the boyish foolishness of youth into a more responsible and competent man. Typically, that journey should be a good thing. In his case, going back to his family seems to have required reverting (at least partially) to a previous state. Additionally, those who "love" him risked life and limb to ensure that he returned to that state.

I do not believe that being with the Crone was better for him. At the same time, I'm not sure that being dragged to a gilded cage and forced back into being a version of who he was before growth is particularly heroic on the part of his rescuers.

They all have a story of success which relies upon him again being the helpless boy who needed saving.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That depends on perspective.

I can't think of any perspective where he would be better off as a mind slave!

He's had an entire childhood of being second place to his sister and falling into the role we saw him in at the beginning of the show -a role which was constructed for him by constantly being fed low expectations and the idea that was all he could be.

There is no evidence that he was anything other than what he chose to be. And unlike his sister, he was not being forced into a political marriage.

They all have a story of success which relies upon him again being the helpless boy who needed saving.

You are objecting to the reversal of traditional gender roles?

Your princess is in another castle.

 

[Argyle King]

I can't think of any perspective where he would be better off as a mind slave!

There is no evidence that he was anything other than what he chose to be. And unlike his sister, he was not being forced into a political marriage.

You are objecting to the reversal of traditional gender roles?

Your princess is in another castle.

I wouldn't even characterize it as a reversal of roles.

Even in the most cliche of old Disney movies, the princess/damsel was typically shown to have some semblance of competence and shown to have some manner of evolution into something better.

Aschenputtel maintains a household and is shown to be of a character which shines through her step-sisters' efforts; Ariel overcomes naivety to find confidence in herself and her own voice; etc; etc. There is some ability to overcome a challenge, bring something of value to their other half in "happily ever after," and/or an evolution into a better state.

In contrast, Airik gets barely any of that. All efforts to evolve from the boyish and indulgent f-boy prince saddled with low expectations into a competent man and partner end up going nowhere. He is "saved" by being put right back to where he started... in some ways worse than where he started.

To whom was he truly a "mind slave"?

The society which seeks to return him to a state of lesser value and lesser competence or the "evil" crone which intentionally sought him out because she saw value in him as something special and someone who had potential to be something greater?

Do I think the Crone was evil? Yeah, probably*, but I don't think it's necessarily that simple if looking at it from the perspective of Airik.

In a lot of ways, I imagine his journey home could be similar to when a lot of soldiers return home from combat and war. The country you leave isn't always the same one to which you come home.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

saddled with low expectations

You evidently watched a different episode 1 to everyone else, since this is pretty much the opposite of his situation.

the princess/damsel was typically shown to have some semblance of competence

He tries to escape, and fails, but not through incompetence. He shows unusual determination. Anyone would have failed in that situation. There was no way out. And it wouldn't make for much of a quest if the object rescued himself. It would be like the One Ring rolling itself to Mount Doom. Holy Grail? I found it, it had rolled under the chair.

To whom was he truly a "mind slave"?

Err, the Worm? You did watch the show?

Ariel overcomes naivety to find confidence in herself and her own voice

She kills herself because the Prince doesn't love her. Try reading the book.

and partner

He was never in love with Alora Dannan. He was in love with "Dove". His imagined version of the person. Had he had time to get to know the real person before being whisked away he would have got bored and ended the relationship himself, as he had with all his previous relationships. He needed to learn the lesson of rejection before he could have any sort of healthy relationship with anyone.

 

[Ryujin]

In a lot of ways, I imagine his journey home could be similar to when a lot of soldiers return home from combat and war. The country you leave isn't always the same one to which you come home.

Most frequently that's seen as being because the soldier's/adventurer's viewpoint has changed as a result of what they've seen, rather than their home changing. An exception to that would be "The Scouring of the Shire" in "The Lord of the Rings", in which both the characters and the Shire have changed.

Airk will be returning to his original destiny, which will be to become the king. Kit's destiny was to become a political chess piece. Obviously that will have changed because the other pawn, Graydon, isn't quite on the same board anymore. Or maybe he will be?

 

[Argyle King]

1) You evidently watched a different episode 1 to everyone else, since this is pretty much the opposite of his situation.

2) He tries to escape, and fails, but not through incompetence. He shows unusual determination. Anyone would have failed in that situation. There was no way out. And it wouldn't make for much of a quest if the object rescued himself. It would be like the One Ring rolling itself to Mount Doom. Holy Grail? I found it, it had rolled under the chair.

3) Err, the Worm? You did watch the show?

4) She kills herself because the Prince doesn't love her. Try reading the book.

5) He was never in love with Alora Dannan. He was in love with "Dove". His imagined version of the person. Had he had time to get to know the real person before being whisked away he would have got bored and ended the relationship himself, as he had with all his previous relationships. He needed to learn the lesson of rejection before he could have any sort of healthy relationship with anyone.

1) Possibly. Though, it's hard to say because the show didn't seem to know which direction it was going for the first few episodes.

2) It's not just that one situation. As I said, even the typical Disney movie princess is shown to have some value. (See also #4)

3) I did. But that's missing the point of why I said what I said. Upthread, I mentioned that the Worm juice was used to help brainwash him. But that's also a very different thing than being fed a certain narrative and having it ingrained in you as "good" from a young age.

4) Yes, the book versions are different. Usually, those versions have deeper allegorical meaning. That would have some relevance to my comments about what the message accompanying the evolution of the character -or the failed attempt to evolve- says to an audience.

5) If that can be extrapolated from what has been said to be limited on-screen information, I would posit that the things I've brought forward are equally as valuable to weigh. In particular, he's shown to have some motivation to evolve beyond the boyish prince and become something more when given the opportunity. Why is he deemed less worthy of a happy ending than Jade, Kit, and Elora?

Again, I'm not saying that the Crone isn't evil (though the show does and also illustrates that Tir Asleen has a history of unfairly categorizing certain people as bad or evil, like the Bone Reavers). What I am saying is that I have questions about how the being "rescued" looks from Prince Airk's perspective. How will it look when he sees that Graydon now occupies a position which may have been his?