D&D (2024) 4e (DnD: Tactics) remake wish list.

[doctorbadwolf]

I would probably go something closer to PF2 when it comes to "bounded accuracy." I think that 4e's power fantasy is different than 5e's. IMHO, 4e aims for something a bit more mythic, where high level characters don't have much to fear from lower level threats. Bounded accuracy means that a swarm of bandits remain a threat, especially with 5e's action economy, but 4e D&D wants the characters to become mythic heroes who mop the floor with a swarm of bandits. I'm not sure if "bounded accuracy" really jives with 4e's paragon and epic destinies. I do agree, however, that I would remove a lot of the anything that provides "tiny fiddly little bonuses," whether they are feats or otherwise.

I might be down to increase number scaling a little, but certainly not to 4e’s original levels. I think HP can do the job of making local bandits a non issue for Demi-gods, or Paragon and Epic class features. Or both.

Eg, the rogue might at level 11 gain a feature that makes their overdamage simply carry over to another enemy if the downed enemy a heroic tier threat. The cleric might instead put the fear of the gods into lesser threats, causing all enemies of a lower tier (or X level lower) to flee as if turned using a mechanic like the sleep spell.

Another way to go might be that PC damage does increase, and enemies start getting healing and damage mitigation (and higher damage in turn). Or if we want an easy one line rule, if an enemy is X levels below the average level in the party, they are treated as a minion.

I would probably reduce the reliance on feats, maybe even experiment with removing them entirely. That would remove some of the bloat and fiddly bits. If feats do anything, I would like to see them expand character options horizontally rather than vertically.

Sure, I’d be fine with that, especially if characters can instead choose new class features, keeping things a little more focused. OTOH, I’d also enjoy it if feats stick around, but are for adding interesting mostly non-combat features, like gaining a title or followers who can do downtime stuff for you.

Then I’d take stuff like MC and skill bonus increase and gaining new skills, and make it part of the basic progression. So at level 8, you can gain a new skill proficiency or Focus a skill you already have proficiency with.

This also seems doable, possibly if a character uses "healing surges" (see below). But maybe there are other ways for characters to "recharge" their abilities: e.g., critical hits.

Yeah, the idea is more to give the freedom of 5e style Spellcasting, but I’ve also seen decent arguments against that, so idk.

I would probably create a compatible "basic" version of the game and put that in a separate supplement or even starter set. A lot of classes technically do have simplistic powers that they can use over and over: i.e., at wills.

Here we simply diverge. The state of 4e was improved by having both the phb style classes and the essentials styles, I really think you can just fold the essentials classes into their parent class as class feature choices.

This would potentially work as well in reducing some of the redundancy of higher level powers doing the same thing but a bit better.

Agreed. It’s silly to have the same power like that when it could just have “at higher level” entries.

Other Potential Changes

• Rename "Healing Surges" to "Vitality" or something a little more accurate to their function in the game
• Change the Sorcerer from using the Arcane power source to Elemental power. The goal here is to have the Sorcerer being a little more closely aligned in the flavor of the World Axis mythos to the Elemental Chaos and potentially even Demons. A Sorcerer thereby becomes not just more of an elementalist but also a caster of chaos magic.

I’m not sure I’d want to add an Elemental Power Source. I kinda like that it’s either primal or arcane depending on specifics of the effect or power or whatever.

Still, maybe. I’d want to figure out at least one other Elemental class, though. Probably a defender, or controller.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

5 Alignments? Let's make it 3??? Good, Neutral, and Evil...OR...Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.

I agree. Especially since I don’t consider Chaotic Evil to be the most evil of evil, or lawful good the most good of good.

 

[Aldarc]

I’m not sure I’d want to add an Elemental Power Source. I kinda like that it’s either primal or arcane depending on specifics of the effect or power or whatever.

Still, maybe. I’d want to figure out at least one other Elemental class, though. Probably a defender, or controller.

My thinking here is about leaning into the World Axis mythos. Magic power taps into different sources.

Divine: Astral Sea & Gods/Celestials
Primal: Material World & Spirits
Arcane: the radiating magic that permeates the whole cosmos

Herein, I like the idea of Elemental as its own power source, which apparently was in the works before 4e ended. That would make "the Planes Below," i.e., the Elemental Chaos and Abyss, as a counterpart power source to the Astral Sea.

I agree. Especially since I don’t consider Chaotic Evil to be the most evil of evil, or lawful good the most good of good.

I don't. 4e's alignment fits the Chaoskampf motif of the World Axis mythos and the Nentir Vale, as well as the Chaoskampf myths of a LOT of real world mythologies and ancient religions. I'm pretty confident that James Wyatt, a Union Theological Seminary-trained D&D designer, had this motif in mind. It works super well for the World Axis and I would hate to see it gone.

 

[Minigiant]

I am intrigued on the idea of letting PCs use Encounter and Daily power more often.

It would cut to the heart of 4e fundamentally and D&D itself. It doesn't sit right for me for classes like wizards and psions.

But it would make 4e easier for newcomers and reduce a looe if the bonus/penalty management.

I might be okay with the controllers like wizard, druid, and psions keeping full use of attack dailies and encounters. Defenders, strikers, and leaders would spam. And it would make the daily and encounter from paragon path and epic destiny matter more.

Maybe in turn classes get 1 more at will per tier? I dunno.

 

[Enrahim2]

I think it really depends on the shape of the rerelease. If it is mainly as a full quality vtt experience, I think grooming of powers as mentioned would be the main thing to go for. Many of the other suggestions i see here seem to adress pains that a good VTT would effectively eliminate trough automatic bonus management, and clean character creation interface. Or they are addressing concerns that would make homebrewing easier, which a VTT would likely sort of counter..

If targeting mainly a non-digital use I guess a full overhaul 13th age or 5ed style might be needed, as 4ed really seem designed for VTT play to it's very core.

 

[Bagpuss]

That would eliminate the need for having boss, regular, and minion versions of the same monster.

I liked that about 4th Edition. The fact that something you faced at low level and was a hard fight, was a single hit to dispatch when you'd got to much higher levels.

They definitely need to bring back minions. Alternatively maybe have a rule like any creature with say a CR 5 or more below your character level is dispatched with any amount of damage.

 

[mellored]

Alternatively maybe have a rule like any creature with say a CR 5 or more below your character level is dispatched with any amount of damage.

I would like something like that better than having multiple stat blocks.

Maybe some kind of damage resistance scaling? Like everyone gets +1 damage and +1 DR each level. And then don't scale HP?

Seems like you could make it work somehow.

 

[Steampunkette]

This is going to sound insane... but.

Make it.

Straight up remake 4e D&D using ENTIRELY NEW WRITING.

Put it into your own words, grab new art, and publish it. Same game, different terms. Change it how you like with the "Use powers of their own source independent of role" thing, too. Maybe make some powers Role-Specific and some powers Role-Agnostic to preserve some uniqueness but...

Go for it. No one can stop you.

 

[Haplo781]

My thinking here is about leaning into the World Axis mythos. Magic power taps into different sources.

Divine: Astral Sea & Gods/Celestials
Primal: Material World & Spirits
Arcane: the radiating magic that permeates the whole cosmos

Herein, I like the idea of Elemental as its own power source, which apparently was in the works before 4e ended. That would make "the Planes Below," i.e., the Elemental Chaos and Abyss, as a counterpart power source to the Astral Sea.


I don't. 4e's alignment fits the Chaoskampf motif of the World Axis mythos and the Nentir Vale, as well as the Chaoskampf myths of a LOT of real world mythologies and ancient religions. I'm pretty confident that James Wyatt, a Union Theological Seminary-trained D&D designer, had this motif in mind. It works super well for the World Axis and I would hate to see it gone.

Arcane is honestly a power source that could be eliminated and nothing of value would be lost. You could replace it with Fey (new source), Shadow, and Elemental. Lose the wizard and replace it with a few more flavorful and focused classes like a beguiler (fey), binder (elemental), and illusionist (shadow).

 

[Minigiant]

Arcane is honestly a power source that could be eliminated and nothing of value would be lost. You could replace it with Fey (new source), Shadow, and Elemental. Lose the wizard and replace it with a few more flavorful and focused classes like a beguiler (fey), binder (elemental), and illusionist (shadow).

I'm more into power source refinement.

Like Martial is War. "of or appropriate to war". That not roguish. Rogues cheat. Fighter, Rangers, and Warlords fight.

I'd pull Rogue out of Martial to make a Subterfuge or Underworld power source with Swashbuckler (defender), Boss (leader), and Saboteur (controller).

Then make Arcane pure knowledge based magic and shove Sorcerers with Benders and Shair into an Elemental Power Source.