D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Reynard]

The assumption behind dungeon design is the crafter is much stronger or powerful than the PCs

Is that an assumption behind dungeon design? I've never heard it before.

so much that the obstacles are challenges.

5e doesn't have level 30 stuff.

The GM or designer sets the challenges. We know what numbers (DCs, ACs, ho, whatever) challenge 20th level characters. I'm not sure what "level 30 stuff" means in this context.

 

[Minigiant]

Is that an assumption behind dungeon design? I've never heard it before.

The GM or designer sets the challenges. We know what numbers (DCs, ACs, ho, whatever) challenge 20th level characters. I'm not sure what "level 30 stuff" means in this context.

D&D stops being about DCs in tier 4. So you need to create nonDCs objects and beings to pull the game back into DC based challenges.

And those don't exist in 5e.

 

[Reynard]

D&D stops being about DCs in tier 4. So you need to create nonDCs objects and beings to pull the game back into DC based challenges.

I am having trouble parsing this sentence. I think you are saying that the characters bonuses get so high in tier 4 DCs don't matter. But if so, I don't agree. After all a 17th level fighter with a 10 wisdom still has a +0 on that save.

And those don't exist in 5e.

So, what is your proposed solution?

 

[dave2008]

The assumption behind dungeon design is the crafter is much stronger or powerful than the PCs so much that the obstacles are challenges.

5e doesn't have level 30 stuff.

What do you mean? The PCs only go to 20th level, so what do you mean? Can I challenge a 20th level group with a dungeon in 5e? Absolutely, can I do it for every group - well that would take a lot more work for sure. But if you give me a group of 4 20th level PCs, I can make a dungeon that can challenge them - by the rules. The issue for me is less can it be done (it can), but can you cover all cases (probably not), and what do you do so you don't use the same ideas over and over again.

 

[MarkB]

So here are the general "categories" of high level things to consider:

Raw Powaa
This is just the raw amount of awesome the PCs can bring into your combats. A few ways to handle this:

• Narratively: As mentioned before, its perfectly fine when a high level party encounters a mundane threat to just put the dice away and have everyone describe how utterly badass they are. For some players, this is actually way more enjoyable than the "real combats".
• More encounters: More attrition is generally needed at high levels.
• Time Limit: Probably one of the most important things to me at the high levels. You give a high level parties a week, almost nothing can stop them. A day, they are kicking butt. An hour....ok now things are interesting.
• BBEG is never shown until the end: The real BBEG should never be accessible until the very end. Either they are locked away in some planar vault (aka REALLY locked away), or the party doesn't even know who the actual BBEG is (though be wary of divinations in this respect), or they defeat the BBEG who then turns into the REAL BBEG (ala final fantasy style). If you do anything less than this, just expect your BBEG to get snipped along the way.
• The end place neither needs to be epic or mobile. If the adventure resolves around a static place, you are just opening up the door for epic shenanigans to ruin your day. So either the place needs to be suitable epic so that normal high level shenanigans would not work (like Asmodeus' palace or something), or it needs to be a place that can shifts or move around so the party can't just target it.

Divinations
well used divinations can be very powerful and potentially adventure disrupting. A few things to consider:

• Create a problem without a known solution: Part of the fun of DMing high level adventures is....you don't have to have everything worked out. Feel free to create puzzles that you don't know the answer to, in your head you go "I honestly don't know how to get into this thing" and then let the players flex their high level investigatory and divination skills to try and find solutions.
• Mysteries are the means, not the end. The classic murder mystery does not exist at high levels, its just too difficult. Instead, make that the B plot, a side thing that leads to the real adventure.
• If a divination doesn't work, have a good reason why. Spoiling a divination is fine once in a while to shake things up, but if your ham fisted with it, it will just deflate the party.
• Counter divination: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your party is using divinations to sniff out the BBEG, no reason they can't use the same. Feel free to create traps and scenarios specifically tailored to the weakness of one of your party.....as the BBEG of course has learned about their most important threats.

Teleportation

• Nothing is linear at high levels. Just throw away the linear dungeon at high levels, it doesn't work well. Instead go for a "need X things" approach. Example: A dungeon where you need 6 keys from 6 different rooms to open up the planar door (not a regular door, high level parties would smash that, has to be some crazy space door). Now make those 6 different rooms exist in 6 different planes. Now, make one of the door only exist in the past. Ok now we are talking!
• Move away from Space towards Time. Getting to the X place is no problem...but the party also must get there by X time. This combined with good time pressure can add a nice element, or it can slow the adventure down to allow for more proper pacing.
• Use Teleport blockers sparingly. Having an entire dungeon teleport proof is a bit meh....having one small room in a dungeon proofed can be a nice play.

Consider a series of high level adventures versus a "campaign". To me the biggest issue with high levels is the "campaign". Having 1-3 adventures at high levels with some world ending threat....sure its a ton of fun. Trying to do another 10-15 sessions....well now your having to up the ante all the time, and it makes world building a lot more difficult. High level is the endgame, there is no issue with just pushing the game till its natural end.

That's a good list, but I'd add to it: Circumventing the whole thing because the problem as presented is something that the PCs can fix with their existing toolset without even approaching the McGuffin.

When the party can literally Wish their problems away, or has a reliable direct hotline to their favourite deity, any adventure that is formatted as "You need Thing A in order to fix Problem X" can be circumvented by just finding a different solution to Problem X and letting Thing A languish in its perfectly-protected fortress for the rest of time.

 

[Mort]

What do you mean? The PCs only go to 20th level, so what do you mean? Can I challenge a 20th level group with a dungeon in 5e? Absolutely, can I do it for every group - well that would take a lot more work for sure. But if you give me a group of 4 20th level PCs, I can make a dungeon that can challenge them - by the rules. The issue for me is less can it be done (it can), but can you cover all cases (probably not), and what do you do so you don't use the same ideas over and over again.

I think any tier 4 published adventure needs to lead with the disclaimer that it assumes the PCs will have access to certain resources (arcane, divine, connections etc.) appropriate to PCs of that level. If the group in question does not -the DM will have to compensate in whatever way is appropriate. The adventure can provide some suggestions, but by the very nature of high level play, cannot possibly cover all bases.

 

[bloodtide]

I think a lot of DMs looking for a module want to have the problem and solution given to them. While a lot of the solutions may be flexible, they also need to have guidelines for what the writer was thinking. I'm not sure I would buy an adventure that did not offer at least one solution for the problems.

This is a good example of a problem with high level adventure modules. Many DMs just want a by the numbers linear adventure: they want to be told what to do and how to do it. The DM is unwilling, or unable, to do things on their own. A lot of high level adventures, even more so the older 2E ones, often don't give a solution: the DM and Players must figure one out. And many DMs say they like figuring out a new unique way to solve a problem...at least until they have to solve it.

Players sign up for Dungeons & Dragons. Dungeon style adventures are what they want. Preferably with dragons in them. If they wanted Politics & Principalities they would be playing a different game.

Are you really saying a game of D&D must only be in a dungeon with a dragon?

Does a non-nova party have any chance in these? If you run through with a rogue, monk, fighter, barbarian and ranger do you expect the same results as with a more balanced or caster-heavy party?

One of the issues with few-encounters-per-day is that the balance between the classes is thrown off. Throwing off class balance with too few encounters per day is a problem starting tier 2, and in tier 3 & 4 seems like it makes some characters second string contributors. This also seems to make restricted time a ridiculously heavy penalty against any class who aren't designed to nova.

How do you get around this?

The trick here is adventure and encounter design...something that D&D fizzles a bit on. An easy encounter can be made much harder with a tweak or two. A group of orcs standing in a clearing is easy, but what if the orcs were all climbing and jumping between trees and shooting arrows. If the characters just stay put, it will be a difficult encounter. But when the players decide to have their characters climb the trees to fight, now things get hard. Next come demons in demon tainted trees. Next comes a fight deep under water. The next one is in the air. The next in space. Three dimensions is a great way to balance an encounter.

There is also the two part encounter. The monsters lair is in the base of the long ago destroyed Arch of Healing...but as the monster has eaten some of the arch rubble, it gets amazing healing. The characters can't kill it, unless the break it's connection to the broken arch. So they is not just a d20 spam combat, the players will need to figure out what is going on and how to block or spot it. This also works with any foe that can possess: the characters can kill the host body, but that does not stop the possessor.

The purpose of this thread is to identify the design challenges in creating high level adventures for a general audience that some people suggest makes the prospect difficult or impossible, and then engineer solutions to those problems.

One Big Problem is that quite often when someone is given solutions to high level play adventure problems they flat out say that they "don't want those solutions" and that they are talking about "other unspecified problems" only. And this is a problem with publishers and companies too: they will reject your "wrong kind" of adventure.

Another Big Problem, a huge one in 5E, is you must allow Homebrew. High level options just don't exist in 5E core, and barley any even if you count all 'offical' stuff.

 

[dave2008]

So here are the general "categories" of high level things to consider:

Raw Powaa
This is just the raw amount of awesome the PCs can bring into your combats. A few ways to handle this:

• Narratively: As mentioned before, its perfectly fine when a high level party encounters a mundane threat to just put the dice away and have everyone describe how utterly badass they are. For some players, this is actually way more enjoyable than the "real combats".
• More encounters: More attrition is generally needed at high levels.
• Time Limit: Probably one of the most important things to me at the high levels. You give a high level parties a week, almost nothing can stop them. A day, they are kicking butt. An hour....ok now things are interesting.
• BBEG is never shown until the end: The real BBEG should never be accessible until the very end. Either they are locked away in some planar vault (aka REALLY locked away), or the party doesn't even know who the actual BBEG is (though be wary of divinations in this respect), or they defeat the BBEG who then turns into the REAL BBEG (ala final fantasy style). If you do anything less than this, just expect your BBEG to get snipped along the way.
• The end place neither needs to be epic or mobile. If the adventure resolves around a static place, you are just opening up the door for epic shenanigans to ruin your day. So either the place needs to be suitable epic so that normal high level shenanigans would not work (like Asmodeus' palace or something), or it needs to be a place that can shifts or move around so the party can't just target it.

Divinations
well used divinations can be very powerful and potentially adventure disrupting. A few things to consider:

• Create a problem without a known solution: Part of the fun of DMing high level adventures is....you don't have to have everything worked out. Feel free to create puzzles that you don't know the answer to, in your head you go "I honestly don't know how to get into this thing" and then let the players flex their high level investigatory and divination skills to try and find solutions.
• Mysteries are the means, not the end. The classic murder mystery does not exist at high levels, its just too difficult. Instead, make that the B plot, a side thing that leads to the real adventure.
• If a divination doesn't work, have a good reason why. Spoiling a divination is fine once in a while to shake things up, but if your ham fisted with it, it will just deflate the party.
• Counter divination: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your party is using divinations to sniff out the BBEG, no reason they can't use the same. Feel free to create traps and scenarios specifically tailored to the weakness of one of your party.....as the BBEG of course has learned about their most important threats.

Teleportation

• Nothing is linear at high levels. Just throw away the linear dungeon at high levels, it doesn't work well. Instead go for a "need X things" approach. Example: A dungeon where you need 6 keys from 6 different rooms to open up the planar door (not a regular door, high level parties would smash that, has to be some crazy space door). Now make those 6 different rooms exist in 6 different planes. Now, make one of the door only exist in the past. Ok now we are talking!
• Move away from Space towards Time. Getting to the X place is no problem...but the party also must get there by X time. This combined with good time pressure can add a nice element, or it can slow the adventure down to allow for more proper pacing.
• Use Teleport blockers sparingly. Having an entire dungeon teleport proof is a bit meh....having one small room in a dungeon proofed can be a nice play.

Consider a series of high level adventures versus a "campaign". To me the biggest issue with high levels is the "campaign". Having 1-3 adventures at high levels with some world ending threat....sure its a ton of fun. Trying to do another 10-15 sessions....well now your having to up the ante all the time, and it makes world building a lot more difficult. High level is the endgame, there is no issue with just pushing the game till its natural end.

Good stuff - thank you for sharing! I know you play with some gonzo high powered PCs sometimes too. So if you can get it to work, I imagine it can work for any group!

 

[Minigiant]

I am having trouble parsing this sentence. I think you are saying that the characters bonuses get so high in tier 4 DCs don't matter. But if so, I don't agree. After all a 17th level fighter with a 10 wisdom still has a +0 on that save.

So, what is your proposed solution?

What do you mean? The PCs only go to 20th level, so what do you mean? Can I challenge a 20th level group with a dungeon in 5e? Absolutely, can I do it for every group - well that would take a lot more work for sure. But if you give me a group of 4 20th level PCs, I can make a dungeon that can challenge them - by the rules. The issue for me is less can it be done (it can), but can you cover all cases (probably not), and what do you do so you don't use the same ideas over and over again.

I'll explain it with a simple sentence.

There aren't epic magic, superheroic feats, and legendary maneuvers you can place on items or objects to restrict high level PHB options.

 

[dave2008]

I'll explain it with a simple sentence.

There aren't epic magic, superheroic feats, and legendary maneuvers you can place on items or objects to restrict high level PHB options.

Are you saying WotC hasn't made an adventure, magic item, or monster that can do this or that it is not possible by the rules and guidelines of the game? I certainly feel like I can do it within the bounds of what the game allows. If I really need to; however, I think the trick sometimes is to not restrict - but to go with the flow at high level