D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[dave2008]

I'll explain it with a simple sentence.

There aren't epic magic, superheroic feats, and legendary maneuvers you can place on items or objects to restrict high level PHB options.

Also for monsters there is this in the DMG, which allows you to mimic all the PHB options:

Monsters with Classes​

You can use the rules in chapter 3 of the Player’s Handbook to give class levels to a monster. For example, you can turn an ordinary werewolf into a werewolf with four levels of the barbarian class (such a monster would be expressed as “Werewolf, 4th-level barbarian”).

Start with the monster’s stat block. The monster gains all the class features for every class level you add, with the following exceptions:

• The monster doesn’t gain the starting equipment of the added class.
• For each class level you add, the monster gains one Hit Die of its normal type (based on its size), ignoring the class’s Hit Die progression.
• The monster’s proficiency bonus is based on its challenge rating, not its class levels.

Once you finish adding class levels to a monster, feel free to tweak its ability scores as you see fit (for example, raising the monster’s Intelligence score so that the monster is a more effective wizard), and make whatever other adjustments are needed. You’ll need to recalculate its challenge rating as though you had designed the monster from scratch.

Depending on the monster and the number of class levels you add to it, its challenge rating might change very little or increase dramatically. For example, a werewolf that gains four barbarian levels is a much greater threat than it was before. In contrast, the hit points, spells, and other class features that an ancient red dragon gains from five levels of wizard don’t increase its challenge rating.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

The fun twist of high level adventures is that the same mindset for low level adventures won't work due to all the more complex options the players AND monsters have at their disposal.

IMO, the focus should not be challenging the PCs but to make the adventure give opportunities for their abilities to shine. High level is when the PCs have so many things they can do, but approaching design like a low to mid level adventure would be too limiting to take advantage of the fact that the PCs have so many things they can do.

Half or more of the fun of high level adventures imo is getting to try out the things the PCs can do at high levels.

 

[Minigiant]

Also for monsters there is this in the DMG, which allows you to mimic all the PHB options:

Monsters with Classes​

You can use the rules in chapter 3 of the Player’s Handbook to give class levels to a monster. For example, you can turn an ordinary werewolf into a werewolf with four levels of the barbarian class (such a monster would be expressed as “Werewolf, 4th-level barbarian”).

Start with the monster’s stat block. The monster gains all the class features for every class level you add, with the following exceptions:

• The monster doesn’t gain the starting equipment of the added class.
• For each class level you add, the monster gains one Hit Die of its normal type (based on its size), ignoring the class’s Hit Die progression.
• The monster’s proficiency bonus is based on its challenge rating, not its class levels.

Once you finish adding class levels to a monster, feel free to tweak its ability scores as you see fit (for example, raising the monster’s Intelligence score so that the monster is a more effective wizard), and make whatever other adjustments are needed. You’ll need to recalculate its challenge rating as though you had designed the monster from scratch.

Depending on the monster and the number of class levels you add to it, its challenge rating might change very little or increase dramatically. For example, a werewolf that gains four barbarian levels is a much greater threat than it was before. In contrast, the hit points, spells, and other class features that an ancient red dragon gains from five levels of wizard don’t increase its challenge rating.

You can't give a werewolf epic barbarian levels if epic barbarian doesn't exist.

That's my point. Earlier editions had level 21+ content to challenge level 15 PCs with.

5e doesn't so you can't run throw a level 30 wizard or level 25 fighter at a level 17 party.

 

[dave2008]

You can't give a werewolf epic barbarian levels if epic barbarian doesn't exist.

That's my point. Earlier editions had level 21+ content to challenge level 15 PCs with.

5e doesn't so you can't run throw a level 30 wizard or level 25 fighter at a level 17 party.

Yes and no. You have CR 30 mythic monsters which can do the trick. Also, you don't need exceed the level of the PCs to challenge them, just matching them should be a 50/50 fight. Of course if you add 20 levels of barbarian, or fighter, or wizard to an ancient red your going to get something kind of scary!

Plus supernatural gifts and epic boons from the DMG.

And piety from Theros.

And there are 3PP products that go up to level 40.

 

[Flamestrike]

You wrote a lot, without saying much. I mean, all you are really saying is: "Release the Kraken!" Which I feel is kind of obvious. I thought you would have more concrete examples. It is cool if you don't, that was just the impression you gave (IMO).

No, that's not what I said.

To paraphrase myself 'Make the stakes high, the antagonists experienced, and the environments nonstandard'.

You need experience in high level play before you can do it properly though. You need to be familiar with the tricks high level PCs can pull, so your monsters can also be familiar with the same tricks (and you can play them smart instead of as just dumb bags of HP).

In a recent thread on this site, I ran a PbP game for high level PCs. It was set on Careri (the prison planet), the PCs got there via the Astral Plane (on an Astral Barge) it featured Githyanki spellcasters, a Pit Fiend/ Archduke of Hell, a Red Dragon, and a Titan (among other threats) who were all well versed in high level PC tactics and abilities (with countermeasures prepared) in addition to stand up fights with Trolls, an Iron Golem and some traps.

The expectation was that the PCs were Avengers like people of notoriety, with connections among the movers and shakers of the Prime material. They were actively sought out by Hermes, messenger of the Gods for the task.

At stake was the fate of the multiverse.

Choosing the setting (prison plane of Carceri) let me regulate teleportation and planar travel (and summons/ conjuration) while remaining thematically appropriate (it's the prison plane of the multiverse, where Titans - the BBEG - were banished Aeons ago, which is actually canon). The Gith are also thematically appropriate for the setting (the Astral plane) and they used their spells smartly, with a plan (involving permanent image, greater invisibility, simulacrum and others).

It's not just 'enter the dungeon, moving from room to room/ encounter to encounter and gather loot', although it played out (at the table) in the same linear fashion, with the party moving from encounter to encounter largely as planned, with the illusion of freedom of choice (a good DM has a good idea of where the PCs are going to go next, and sets the path down for them where he wants them to go, while also being open to left field choices and improvisation if they go off the rails, and being prepared to reward creative choices that bypass or overcome intended challenges in unexpected ways).

I felt (as DM) the players were challenged as they were going, had to think and try to 'get in the head' of the adversaries they were facing (instead of just viewing them as HP) and were somewhat invested in the outcome of the quest (and it's potential consequences) while still getting to act like bad-ass Avengers, travelling the planes of existence, dealing with Demigods and Archdukes of Hell, and getting to use their full suite of abilities, against an experienced foe, well versed in the capabilities of high level PCs.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes and no. You have CR 30 mythic monsters which can do the trick. Also, you don't need exceed the level of the PCs to challenge them, just matching them should be a 50/50 fight. Of course if you add 20 levels of barbarian, or fighter, or wizard to an ancient red your going to get something kind of scary!

Plus supernatural gifts and epic boons from the DMG.

And piety from Theros.

And there are 3PP products that go up to level 40.

Not CR 30.
Level 30.

There is a difference.

 

[Flamestrike]

This is beyond the scope of this discussion, besides being unnecessary.

This is a thread about designing challenges for high level parties.

My comment of ''15th level parties should be dealing with existential threats to the entire realm. These are people that can go toe to toe with primal Demon Lords and expect to win. Think planar travel, artifacts and similar things being features, with the fate of the world in the PCs hands.'' is entirely on point with that topic, and clearly within the scope of that topic.

When designing high level adventures, that's your starting point for where to begin. Think big.

That then lets you use antagonists, who are no fools, have dealt with high level PCs before, know all the tricks and abilities that high level PCs use, know effective counters, and know how to exploit the weakness of PCs. It lets you use alien or unusual environments, that force the PCs to think outside the box.

If your groups mission is 'Travel to the 88th layer of the Abyss, and slay Demogorgon (who is well versed in the abilities of high-level adventurers, with millennia of experience) before he destroys the Macguffin of Doom during the imminent Astral convergence and merges the Prime material with the Abyss' your party is not just plane shifting next to him, and nova striking him like a chump.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

High level characters aren't necessarily super hard to make adventures for, a party of Champion Fighter, Berserker Barbarian, Assassin Rogue and Open Hand Monk could probably go on a low level adventure and have things be fine as long as you buff the enemy numbers accordingly (you might need some insane numbers, to be fair, those guys can melt a boss pretty well).

Now, if you balance the adventure for Wizards/Druids/Clerics/etc, then that party above probably can't do anything. That's one of the big issues, there's a huge gap in versatility and power between classes, and the wild stuff you'll need to handle the spellcasters can make more mundane means obsolete (if you're not just throwing anti-magic everywhere).

 

[Mort]

No, that's not what I said.

To paraphrase myself 'Make the stakes high, the antagonists experienced, and the environments nonstandard'.

You need experience in high level play before you can do it properly though. You need to be familiar with the tricks high level PCs can pull, so your monsters can also be familiar with the same tricks (and you can play them smart instead of as just dumb bags of HP).

In a recent thread on this site, I ran a PbP game for high level PCs. It was set on Careri (the prison planet), the PCs got there via the Astral Plane (on an Astral Barge) it featured Githyanki spellcasters, a Pit Fiend/ Archduke of Hell, a Red Dragon, and a Titan (among other threats) who were all well versed in high level PC tactics and abilities (with countermeasures prepared) in addition to stand up fights with Trolls, an Iron Golem and some traps.

The expectation was that the PCs were Avengers like people of notoriety, with connections among the movers and shakers of the Prime material. They were actively sought out by Hermes, messenger of the Gods for the task.

At stake was the fate of the multiverse.

Choosing the setting (prison plane of Carceri) let me regulate teleportation and planar travel (and summons/ conjuration) while remaining thematically appropriate (it's the prison plane of the multiverse, where Titans - the BBEG - were banished Aeons ago, which is actually canon). The Gith are also thematically appropriate for the setting (the Astral plane) and they used their spells smartly, with a plan (involving permanent image, greater invisibility, simulacrum and others).

It's not just 'enter the dungeon, moving from room to room/ encounter to encounter and gather loot', although it played out (at the table) in the same linear fashion, with the party moving from encounter to encounter largely as planned, with the illusion of freedom of choice (a good DM has a good idea of where the PCs are going to go next, and sets the path down for them where he wants them to go, while also being open to left field choices and improvisation if they go off the rails, and being prepared to reward creative choices that bypass or overcome intended challenges in unexpected ways).

I felt (as DM) the players were challenged as they were going, had to think and try to 'get in the head' of the adversaries they were facing (instead of just viewing them as HP) and were somewhat invested in the outcome of the quest (and it's potential consequences) while still getting to act like bad-ass Avengers, travelling the planes of existence, dealing with Demigods and Archdukes of Hell, and getting to use their full suite of abilities, against an experienced foe, well versed in the capabilities of high level PCs.

As a participant, I really liked @Flamestrike 's high level PbP adventure. It seemed all involved were experienced gamers and we were definitely sufficiently challenged (too bad it was left unfinished by real world events!)

In fact, I liked it enough that I shamelessly copied it and have run it 3 times since then (once online and twice in person). All 3 groups LOVED the experience. Though I will say (echoing a prior comment) 2 of the groups were simply not prepared for high level play and I had to adjust things as a result.

 

[dave2008]

Not CR 30.
Level 30.

There is a difference.

Yes I know. But you don't need level 30 stuff to make level 20 adventures exciting IMO.

And 5e does have level 30 stuff too (just not from WotC).