D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[dave2008]

They don't. And this is because the designers of 5e mostly played or pushed unoptimized stereotypical D&D when they designed the game.

And that works for some. I know I can take down my current group with the MM monsters, other groups - not so much.

 

[dave2008]

Hey @Minigiant : does my Godzilla qualify as threat to a group of 20th level PCs? It is been a while since I checked, but I am pretty good at following the DMG guidelines (stretched a bit here for sure, with one caveat). Also, the multiple uses of the mythic trait is bit beyond RAW.

 

[Minigiant]

I get your point, but I personally don't want my dragons relying on spells to challenge PCs. IMO, they should have scary offense and hardy defense. Not every tier 4-5 threat needs to be a riddle.

My personally preference is the 4e route: every color dragon is the epitome of a monster role within that tier.

The White Dragons are the Ultimate Brutes. They master "Dum Dum" tactics and just claw and bite you to death.
The Black Dragons are the Ultimate Lurkers. They attack from cover and darkness. Shoulda have Sneak Attack.
The Green Dragons are the Ultimate Controllers. Say it with me. Save or Suck.
The Blue Dragons are the Ultimate Artillery. Snipe Kite Snipe Kite Land
The Red Dragons are the Ultimate Soldiers. They can claw you to death or burn you from afar. No escape

And it is up to the PCs to deal with a monster fully geared to one tactic that has countermeasure to counters.

 

[dave2008]

My personally preference is the 4e route: every color dragon is the epitome of a monster role within that tier.

The White Dragons are the Ultimate Brutes. They master "Dum Dum" tactics and just claw and bite you to death.
The Black Dragons are the Ultimate Lurkers. They attack from cover and darkness. Shoulda have Sneak Attack.
The Green Dragons are the Ultimate Controllers. Say it with me. Save or Suck.
The Blue Dragons are the Ultimate Artillery. Snipe Kite Snipe Kite Land
The Red Dragons are the Ultimate Soldiers. They can claw you to death or burn you from afar. No escape

And it is up to the PCs to deal with a monster fully geared to one tactic that has countermeasure to counters.

I do like that concept, but...

Of course dragons in 4e were also notoriously chumps to deal with as well. Many of the same problems 5e dragons have. Just like with 5e, I spent a lot of time redesigning 4e dragons. The 4e MM didn't have the countermeasures you've been asking for either. The did get better in the Vault - but they still had issues.

I really hope they take a good hard look a dragon design in the '24 monster manual. However, MotM does not inspire confidence (nor did Fizban's).

 

[Minigiant]

I do like that concept, but...

Of course dragons in 4e were also notoriously chumps to deal with as well. Many of the same problems 5e dragons have. Just like with 5e, I spent a lot of time redesigning 4e dragons. The 4e MM didn't have the countermeasures you've been asking for either. The did get better in the Vault - but they still had issues.

I really hope they take a good hard look a dragon design in the '24 monster manual. However, MotM does not inspire confidence (nor did Fizban's).

4e's problem was mostly math. They kinda figured it out eventually but it was years later. If 4e had the websites and tools 5e had, the problems mostly go away.

4e was a different monster altogether though. It's high levels wasn't difficult or a change of style. It was a slog if you didn't use the adjusted math. 4e prevented the difficulty and style issues by locking most of the crazy effects into rituals and making them treasure so ht the base game loop never changes.

You had to:

1. Do the adventure for the ritual
2. Do the adventure for the money for the ritual
3. Do the busted ritual
4. Now you broke
5. Do the dungeon you did step 1-4 to get to

 

[Quickleaf]

It seems to be an accepted fact that creating pre-designed adventures for high (15+) level characters is difficult.

I would like to accept that argument but with the caveats that a) "difficult" does not mean "impossible" and b) that difficulty is a technical problem that can be solved and is not a systemic problem.

As such I would like to discuss in a serious way what those technical challenges are and how they can be addressed. What I don't want to do is argue about whether the basic premise is true. Nor do I want to discuss the issues of "fluff" around high level adventures -- that is we won't be talking about whether the 18th level characters would be better off doing something else that adventuring.

Remember, the primary goals are to identify problems and discuss potential solutions.

The first thing to came to my mind is a problem that is true for all published adventures but definitely exacerbated at high levels: the designer does not know the composition of the party.

I'm not very well versed in high level adventures, so I've mostly been reading responses from others who have more experience. The highest I've GMed is up to 13th level, and played in a few 17th level one-shots.

The one thing I was starting to notice around 10th level is the abundance of spell slots getting so high that it was challenging to get players to ever feel the "crunch" of running low on spell slots except in very specifically manipulated circumstances. One approach I started playing with was including narrative moments to expend spell slots for a cool effect. For example, reassembling a bridge by expending a 3rd level spell slot, charging up an underwater-pressure-mitigating crystal with escalating spell slots, or activating a wind funnel transporting the PCs from one mountain to the other side of a valley with a total of 2 spell slots per PC transported.

I'm not 100% married to that as an ideal solution (e.g. I think it might further exacerbate certain martial/spellcaster divides), but in some situations I think it can be a fun addition that serves to reduce spell slot resources but feels more like a "value added" rather than something punitive.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Are you really saying a game of D&D must only be in a dungeon with a dragon?

No. But it's a good example of the sort of simple narrative structure my players enjoy. They aren't into politics, world building (which would require taking the game far more seriously than they want to), or freeform play. If you don't drop a signpost "this way to the adventure" in front of them they are locked in decision paralysis.

So what they want from a high level adventure is the same as a low level adventure, but with bigger monsters.

 

[M_Natas]

It seems to be an accepted fact that creating pre-designed adventures for high (15+) level characters is difficult.

I would like to accept that argument but with the caveats that a) "difficult" does not mean "impossible" and b) that difficulty is a technical problem that can be solved and is not a systemic problem.

As such I would like to discuss in a serious way what those technical challenges are and how they can be addressed. What I don't want to do is argue about whether the basic premise is true. Nor do I want to discuss the issues of "fluff" around high level adventures -- that is we won't be talking about whether the 18th level characters would be better off doing something else that adventuring.

Remember, the primary goals are to identify problems and discuss potential solutions.

The first thing to came to my mind is a problem that is true for all published adventures but definitely exacerbated at high levels: the designer does not know the composition of the party.

One solution is to plan the campaign out from level 1/3 up to 20. The last campaign I DMed was built that way. It started at low levels with low-level adventures. Rescue the village from the werewolf. Kill some Zombies. Explore that ruin etc. pp.
While doing so they get involved in the world and exposed to the backstory and the main conflict of the world (this continent was separated from the forgotten realms to quarantine it because of a Lovecraftian entity that was trapped thousand years ago, after it tries to open a hole in reality to let other Lovecraftian things in).
So the stakes kept escalating. From Werewolf threatening a village to an evil IT-like entity killing all the magical children in a city to reassembling the splitted soul of a god to fighting a Kraken that tries to invade a city, getting sparks of divinity and the option to become gods themselves up to find out that the dragon god who you thought was on your side is actually in league with the Lovecraftian monster he is supposed to guard and he is grooming you to become the sacrifice needed to free the monster and open the portal so that the Lovecraftian monsters can colonise this world and reshape it to their liking until they have completely drained it of all life and energy and continuing to the next world.

To create high-level adventures that make sense, you need a world and story that supports that. So from the early levels on you need to build in the 20th Level BBEGs and you need to build in reasons, why they not have taken over the world yet, but become increasingly more dangerous over time.

Like the main trope of high fantasy: the dark Lord who is trapped/lost his power and is bidding his time to get free/get the power back.

But for that all to work, you need the players to want to play safe-the-world campaigns. They need to get invested in the world to play for 20 levels.
And they also need to be okay with not having a choice (because if they don't engage with that adventure, the world will end).

 

[dave2008]

4e's problem was mostly math. They kinda figured it out eventually but it was years later. If 4e had the websites and tools 5e had, the problems mostly go away.

Not really the math, as that barely changed for solo monsters (or at least what I call "the math"). The issue with 4e solos where, IMO:

1. Action economy: Initially solos only got one turn (+ reactions), Later they added "instinctive actions" which add one off turn action. This helped, but 5e Legendary Actions are generally an improvement on this idea.
2. Stunlock/Focus fire: 4e solos had no good way to remove conditions and could easily be shut down so that they did nothing. Again "instinctive actions" helped as you could remove a condition(s) instead of taking the extra action, but that takes you back to #1. Legendary Resistance in 5e was designed to combat this and works better in one sense, but is perhaps to severe in another. I think a better option would be to spend a Legendary Action to remove a condition (like instinctive actions). This is how "Elite Recovery" works in LevelUp.
3. To many hit points: They never really solved this one. The tweaked them a bit, but solos always had a mountain of hit points. 5e eliminated this issue (though maybe to far, but with Mythic monsters they have corrected it wonderfully). Lots of hit points isn't necessarily a problem, except...
4. To little threat: 4e solos did way to little damage, particularly at high level, and where not a threat to harm the party. Thus, battles quickly became a forgone conclusion and then a slog. Later designs improved the situation some, but never came close to solving it. Even at the end, 4e solos did way to little damage. Blog 42 had a great rundown on this issues and I pretty much adopted their revised damage charts. 5e may have improved this issue a little, but definitely has not solved it in official monster design. I can, however, use the DMG guidelines to mostly solve this issue.

 

[dave2008]

I'm not very well versed in high level adventures, so I've mostly been reading responses from others who have more experience. The highest I've GMed is up to 13th level, and played in a few 17th level one-shots.

The one thing I was starting to notice around 10th level is the abundance of spell slots getting so high that it was challenging to get players to ever feel the "crunch" of running low on spell slots except in very specifically manipulated circumstances. One approach I started playing with was including narrative moments to expend spell slots for a cool effect. For example, reassembling a bridge by expending a 3rd level spell slot, charging up an underwater-pressure-mitigating crystal with escalating spell slots, or activating a wind funnel transporting the PCs from one mountain to the other side of a valley with a total of 2 spell slots per PC transported.

I'm not 100% married to that as an ideal solution (e.g. I think it might further exacerbate certain martial/spellcaster divides), but in some situations I think it can be a fun addition that serves to reduce spell slot resources but feels more like a "value added" rather than something punitive.

I do something similar and allow my Wizard to do creative magical things will magic / spell slots (and usually an arcana check) rather than just casts spells. I haven't built them into my adventures so much, but allow it as method for the wizard to freeform his magic somewhat. I like the idea of being more intentional about it. I will give that a try.

This is also similar to what @FrozenNorth was saying. You don't avoid / negate the ability to use teleport, you plan for it and that is one more spell slot taken from the wizard.

 

[Guest 7034872]

High level spell casters definitely change the game. If you have a party that is a monk, a barbarian, a bard and a rogue, that is going to present entirely different design challenges than a party that has a wizard, a cleric, a ranger and a warlock.

I think the design solution for this is to rely on situations and problems with multiple routes to success for the players, rather than specific "puzzles" that need specific solutions (in the form of spells or whatever).

Right now I'm running a 1st-through-20th-level campaign I wrote. We've a party of six full-on spell casters, all of whom are between L11 and L13 at this point. Your proposed solution is exactly what I'm using and I've found it necessary with my party: these guys are so off-the-wall but also so creative in their magic use that at least half the solutions they use are things of which I'd not dreamt. For each dilemma or "puzzle" I give them, I make sure I come up with at least three--usually five or six--distinct, well-defined solutions I can imagine working and how I'll have my NPCs and world react to each in case of success or in case of failure (lotta work, but this is what it takes). What so often happens next is they come up with something completely different, but I manage to react on the fly because I spent so much time thinking through all sorts of possibilities and likely reactions. Then I go back and re-write all sorts of stuff for next week's session. It's heavy work, but we're having a lot of fun.

What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.

 

[John R Davis]

Yeah. The higher level they get, the more solutions they will come up with. Its an awful lot of wasted text if the writer tries to cover every solution. In the 1-20 campaign I kickstarted, at the start of each I tried to address the new stuff the PCs will have.....lots flight, dimension door, etc., if you tried to cover everything i think your head would explode.

 

[Stalker0]

What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.

the key is…stop caring.

By that I mean, you no longer have to build problems that have solutions, or encounters that are fair. The gloves can come off at high levels, you can just go nuts, figuring out an insane solution to the problem is the heroes job.

Hmm why yes that mcguffin is in a sphere of annihilation, in the middle of the negative energy plan, and is in the future so it doesn’t even exist yet. How does the party get it to it…no idea, they will figure it out, or maybe they do it without the maguffin.

 

[Stalker0]

Here is another example of how I used high level power to shape an adventure. I had a genius NPC vs the “greatest detective in the multiverse” aka one of the pc.

At one point the NPC had burned their master plan book in a personal demipkane and locked the ashes in an invisible chest behind a wall of force in a secret compartment. It would be ludicrous for any one to find it.

So of course the party found it and was able to painstakingly reconstruct the book and determine the plan. The raced off to a secret base with an elaborate ritual that they never figured out but were able to destroy.

Except it was a total red herring. The npc had no idea how the party would find the book, they were better than him at this, but he knew they would, and so burned a false book. He set up a whole lair with an elaborate fake ritual just to delay the party for a few key hours while he did his real work

 

[Mort]

the key is…stop caring.

By that I mean, you no longer have to build problems that have solutions, or encounters that are fair. The gloves can come off at high levels, you can just go nuts, figuring out an insane solution to the problem is the heroes job.

Hmm why yes that mcguffin is in a sphere of annihilation, in the middle of the negative energy plan, and is in the future so it doesn’t even exist yet. How does the party get it to it…no idea, they will figure it out, or maybe they do it without the maguffin.

Agreed.

And to add. While fleeing at lower levels of D&D is HARD, at high levels PCs have many varied escape options.

So even IF they get stuck in a situation they cannot prevail they can generally recoup.

 

[LordEntrails]

Right now I'm running a 1st-through-20th-level campaign I wrote. We've a party of six full-on spell casters, all of whom are between L11 and L13 at this point. Your proposed solution is exactly what I'm using and I've found it necessary with my party: these guys are so off-the-wall but also so creative in their magic use that at least half the solutions they use are things of which I'd not dreamt. For each dilemma or "puzzle" I give them, I make sure I come up with at least three--usually five or six--distinct, well-defined solutions I can imagine working and how I'll have my NPCs and world react to each in case of success or in case of failure (lotta work, but this is what it takes). What so often happens next is they come up with something completely different, but I manage to react on the fly because I spent so much time thinking through all sorts of possibilities and likely reactions. Then I go back and re-write all sorts of stuff for next week's session. It's heavy work, but we're having a lot of fun.

What I cannot see but someone more experienced might see is how to accomplish all this without a ton of prep. If anyone who's done this a bunch has tips there, I'll be grateful.

I second the "Don't" prep so hard. Don't make detailed solutions. Don't prep more than the next session except for general concepts. Make outlines of the power forces in your world. Give them a non-detailed list of resources (lots of cultists, some politicians... or Unlimited kobolds with some ogre muscle... or numerous merchants with caravans, hired muscle... or numerous cheap taverns and a few warehouses...) and what the motivations of the group are. Probably add a leaders name and description (Bob, a mysterious ogre).

Have a set of generic encounters and locations. Such as a merchant caravan with guards, a group of devils, a strike force of horrors. And then locations, a forest road, a tavern with a hidden basement, a desert keep, etc. Then mix and match those as needed, and add more than one group of NPCs when needed to make the encounter appropriately hard.

Doing all that will give you a set of tools to create a hundred different challenges on the spur of the moment. So when the players go off the rails you have something to throw at them. "Oh, you find a map of the nearby forest with a x marked deep in the forest." Now you can throw a random caravan they can cross while on their way (if they go) and then a hunting lodge infested with devils.

As for the initial challenge you plan for the next session, as has been said, you don't have to work out exact solutions. General ideas of what might be possible is all that's needed. So they could probably use teleport, or perhaps they could summon the solution, or they might be able to planar shift into the closed room, or...

Oh, and don't worrying about balancing the encounters. They party will either figure it out, or run away and come back later. For instance, my party was about level 14 and I used the map from Riverguard Keep (PotA) and put something like 40 devils (chain devils and others) and a couple of BBEG's and placed them about the place (where the watches were setup, were the misc were lurking, etc) and placed some guards and wards and symbol traps and then let the party figure it out. All the encounter guidelines said is should have been a 3 or 4 times deadly encounter. But the party figured it out, and had a blast.

 

[Maxperson]

While I agree with you in principle, the dragons in the MM are hands down the worst designed monsters of 5E -- doubly so the great wyrms.

You also have the demon lords and dukes of hell that go above CR 20. But by and large WotC has been negligent in giving us monsters above CR 20. With only a few exceptions they're all dragons, demons and devils.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes and no IMO. The 5e dragons are not well designed, but they are very close. They get a lot better if you just give them their lair actions for free, which I did. Now I use my own designs. This is what a great wyrm should look like: Red Dragon, Great Wyrm (Elite, CR 30)

Now THAT'S a dragon. No town of commoners is taking one of those out.

 

[Maxperson]

Dragons shouldn't have spells. They should have dragony abilities that make high levels paladins soil their chainmail shorts. They are not only fundamental figures of fantasy the world over, they are IN THE NAME.

Lazy, boring dragons in D&D are unforgivable.

Dragon magic is a very common trope. I think they should have spells. They should also have dragony abilities that make high level paladins soil their chainmail shorts.

 

[dave2008]

Now THAT'S a dragon. Now town of commoners is taking one of those out.

That was the idea! I do have ideas to simplify it at some point. Started too when dragonlance came out, but never finished.