D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Minigiant]

still don't think you do. Dungeons are not much more than a specific type of setting. This would be akin to saying city adventures, or wilderness adventures.
But then again, I'm pretty clueless as to what you mean by "level 30 equivalent stuff". Do you mean party abilities? magic items? NPCs? I just don't see the need for any of that.

Mostly I mean the idea of adventuring in an enclosed environment with few ways to alter or change this on the cheap.

Level 30 stuff would have effects that make Tier 4 stuff costly, inefficient, or not as versatile again.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

How did you extrapolate this from what @Flamestrike said?

Because I've seem them "umm akshually" in like every martial debate. They're technically right. If you force a bloated number of encounters, martials deal more damage and casters do run out of resources. It doesn't come organically in play though and requires you to grind through a bunch of filler encounters whose only purpose is wasting resources (and my time). High level casters have ways to get around forced encounters and change the world unilaterally. Martials do scutwork ticking off HP. Everyone gets skills but magic always trumps skill in D&D. Outside of antimagic, which I don't think I've ever actually seen in a published adventures but seems to get trotted out like it is common on boards.

I do not believe high level D&D works simply because the narrative capabilities of party members are so wildly different. Until you solve that, high level published adventures will continue to have trouble because a party of four Angel Summoners will laugh at something four BMX Bandits cannot hope to deal with. When one group just gets to say stuff happens, and the other has to beg permission, how does an author create a challenge for both parties? Look at stuff like Find the Path, which basically obsoletes chunks of certain adventures from level 11+ with a bit of reading or a history check. So now an adventure needs to either counter this possibility, assume that the players have it and just get to the next location, or waste a bunch of pagecount dealing with how the mundane losers get to the fireworks factory. Legend Lore is another spell that's going to need to be taken into account in most adventures. 20th level casters are almost co DM's when it comes to narrative control compared to a 20th level fighter.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Which I accounted for in the design of the adventure. I factored in he would do it, and it was him wasting a slot (with the illusion of doing something special, and feeling good about it).

Hermes would have done it for you otherwise.

DMs design adventures for their party. If the adventure is set somewhere, the DM intends for you to get there and do the adventure.

I figured this thread was more about just writing adventures in general for T4, a DM can obviously just design it with their specific PCs in mind.

Planar travel is something a party might just not have, in which case it's either a detour they need to make to get some help, or not a problem at all if you'll just hand them the answer anyway. Same for a lot of other stuff that might come up at high-levels, some parties will just be far more versatile than others.

 

[Reynard]

Mostly I mean the idea of adventuring in an enclosed environment with few ways to alter or change this on the cheap.

Level 30 stuff would have effects that make Tier 4 stuff costly, inefficient, or not as versatile again.

I am not sure I understand why you think you need a list of Level 30 counters to 20th level PCs in order to challenge them. You don't have a menu of Level 15 counters or anything -- you have PC abilities, and a bunch of stuff in the DMG and MM, some of it with CRs and some of it just there. It isn't like a dungeon is built by beings with class levels with an operating budget.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, I get your adventures with 6-8 combats a day (shudder) with inorganic hour long naps every 2 encounters

Not per day, per long rest.

And I run 5-minute short rests, usually handwaved, and limited to 2 per Long rest.

That's the meta at my table, expect 6 or so encounters per long rest (sometimes less, occasionally as few as 1, or rarely as many as a dozen).

That's a choice I make as DM.

When you choose (as DM) to allow a Long Rest (and short rest) recharge of your parties' resources goes a long way to challenge, and class balance.

I get that you prefer not to do anything about this, and just let Nova strikes happen, leading to massive class disparity (with casters dominating as a result; literally something you were just complaining about) but that's a consequence of the choices you're making as a DM and not on any other reason.

Nothing inherently 'wrong' with your choice, it's just that it's the thing that's leading to the problem (caster imbalance) that you seem to be really pissed off about.

It's within your power to change.

 

[Flamestrike]

Planar travel is something a party might just not have, in which case it's either a detour they need to make to get some help, or not a problem at all if you'll just hand them the answer anyway. Same for a lot of other stuff that might come up at high-levels, some parties will just be far more versatile than others.

Which is something that would be factored into the adventure.

You dont build an adventure with the only way forward, unattainable by the people you're designing the adventure for. It defeats the purpose of the adventure if there is a bottleneck, that some groups simply cannot bypass to progress the adventure.

When I sat down and designed the adventure, the fact it happened on a different plane was done (partly) with the intent that a PC would have access to plane shift to get you all there. It was an intentional attempt to drain caster resources (a high-level spell slot) not to create a bottleneck that stopped you all from doing the adventure.

Of course, the illusion (at the table) was that 'thank God we had the caster, or the World would be doomed',

 

[J-H]

In terms of killing meaningful enemies, I have yet to witness casters dominate over even a 5-round battle.
For clearing out chaff, sure, you've got a couple of high-level AOEs like Meteor Storm. You deal 100 damage to the BBEG, if he doesn't just have somebody Counterspell you. Then you're down to Horrid Wilting or Firestorm or something for 35-60 damage, save for half, or single-target damage options for 40-60 damage.

Meanwhile, the barbarian/paladin/fighter with a good magic weapon can easily go up and do 80-140 damage in a round, or more if the dice are lucky.

You want special mobility or something Banished? Send a caster. If you want a dragon or a demigod dead, you send in the martials with caster support to enable them.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, I remember thinking the Paladin will outstrip the fighter and the rogue will be close.

But it wasn't remotely close, the fighter FAR out damaged everyone else - even the sorcerer lobbing AoE (even if you added all the damage done to each target together!)

But that's the beauty of high level play, PCs get to contribute in really diverse ways. The bard, for example, was barely in double digits in terms of damage (as a total) while the fighter was doing something like 80+ per round. But the bard was invaluable in other ways during combat and was particularly handy outside of it.

The Fighter wouldn't have landed many of his hits (and a lot of people would have failed saves) but for your Bards use of Inspiration.

You can take credit for a lot of damage dealt by others, who would have missed (or been unable to act, or taken a lot more damage and been dropped) but for you.

I really noticed the buffs from a DM perspective. I think if you look back at the thread in question, and credited yourself with the damage your BI led to happening (with hits that would have otherwise missed) and damage dealt by PCs who should have gone down due to failed saves (that they instead made due to your BI) your bard is up there as well.

 

[dave2008]

Because I've seem them "umm akshually" in like every martial debate.

I don't feel like you answered my question.

They're technically right. If you force a bloated number of encounters, martials deal more damage and casters do run out of resources. It doesn't come organically in play though and requires you to grind through a bunch of filler encounters.

Now, I don't run a standard campaign, so I can't speak to bog standard 5e. However, in our group of fighters (3), rogues (2), and a wizard. We typically get 2-3 battles per day and it feels pretty balanced. Typically the fighters shine, but the wizard and rogues get their due. So, I think it can work without the 6-8 encounters everyone loves to throw around.

I do not believe high level D&D works simply because the narrative capabilities of party members are so wildly different.

That is what makes it exciting. That is what makes it work IMO.

For context, my standard group is lvl 15; however we have run (3) 5e adventures at level 20. So not a lot of high level 5e, but enough to get a taste. And in my experience (DM) it tasted good. My players had a good time and everyone contributed. Now, we haven't campaigned through levels 17-20, but so far high level 5e has worked for us.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look at stuff like Find the Path, which basically obsoletes chunks of certain adventures from level 11+ with a bit of reading or a history check.

It's literally a 6th level spell that leads you to a fixed, known location, on the same plane of existence. Something that a Ranger has mostly been able to do since 1st level.

If you're running T3 adventures, with PCs that can't already do this, or this is supposed to be part of the challenge, you're not running adventures for T3 characters.

All of your criticisms are what I've been saying all along, of how NOT to plan and run a high level adventure. The DM (when planning his adventures) factors in the abilities of the PCs. He already has determined what Legend Lore finds out when cast, and expects his casters to cast it, just like he's already figured out what the Rogue finds out when using his DC 30 skill check to find some information on the same topic.