D&D 5E The challenges of high level adventure design.

[Reynard]

Firstly, I put to you those two things are linked. Those 'soft topics' as you call them, directly influence mechanical choices you make in your encounter and adventure design, and adversary and environment choices.

Secondly, your 'design problems' runs into the issue that many (most) DMs lack experience in running high level parties (like most players will tell you, their games often peter out by mid-single digit levels, usually 5-7).

Most DMs are well versed with Spells of levels 1-3 and class features found at levels 1-7, and running monsters of CR's up to 10. They're also well versed with 'here is the dungeon, go there, explore it, and get loot' type of adventure design.

When you get into the mid teens levels and higher, few DMs have the experience to deal with high level PC shenanigans (they simply rage quit, usually after a bunch of anti-magic fields start popping up everywhere) AND the adventures are still following similar narratives as they were at low levels (which also feeds into the same problem).

Let's assume all that is true. What are your design solutions for this? What do you do in the level 17, 32 page adventure to help the GM run a successful high level adventure?

 

[LordEntrails]

The hardest part, in the author’s experience, is choosing quickly what actions enemy should take in large battles (10+ foes vs. the party). Spell selections presented in the Bestiary are typically abbreviated and categorized to help; beyond this – pick a few default actions and use those. Low-level divine casters can’t go wrong with Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt, and high level casters are likely to use their high-level spells first.

Yes, I put together a brief "tactics" list for each nigh power NPC. Things they will prepare prior to combat if they can, and then their actions for the first 3 or so rounds (with minor caveats, typically: range, melee, heal allies)

So many DMs are just unfamiliar with what high level PC's can do. They wind up running 'mundane' challenges, for a bunch of heroes with abilities on par with the Avengers.

Yes. Hence why they need to be educated, and a high-level adventure should help with that.

the PCs go off to do their thing individually, and only join back up together to face the final threat.

I've almost never had that happen. And really isn't what a published adventure should, imo, try to account for. But then again, a published adventure could, it would just have to be written slightly differently.

You need to throw stuff like this at a high level party...

That sounds so boring... Sure, one or two fights per tier that is a slog is good for variety. But more than that is tedious. There are much more interesting fights you can design.

I said you need level 30 equivalent stuff to run level 20 dungeons adventures.

I still don't think you do. Dungeons are not much more than a specific type of setting. This would be akin to saying city adventures, or wilderness adventures.
But then again, I'm pretty clueless as to what you mean by "level 30 equivalent stuff". Do you mean party abilities? magic items? NPCs? I just don't see the need for any of that.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right now you have the game disingenuously presenting Paul Blart with slightly bigger numbers and Doctor Strange as being peers

Have DM'd to 20th (and beyond) and have not encountered that problem at all.

The star of our show was the Swashbuckler 14/ Battlemaster 6, over and above the Cleric 14/ Paladin 6, Warlock 20 and Bard 18/ Warlock 2 and the Paladin 2/ Druid 18.

All his 4 other party members had 9th level slots, but for single target damage, and 'unable to roll less than a 27 on any Skill check I make ever' and smart usage of those skills, there was never a problem.

 

[LordEntrails]

While I think having "quantum encounters" in a regular game is generally a good idea, I am not sure it is a good solution for a published adventure. It feels like it would take up too much space/word count in the adventure. But that is jus a kneejerk guess based on the idea. I would have to see it to know for sure.

I stopped worrying about page count long ago. But, I get how depending upon how one were to publish it, it could be a real consideration. Everything I've published (which is only a few) have all been digital only releases. The page count on the PDF doesn't matter. And the amount of text content in an FG module really doesn't matter either

I wonder if a tool you could use would be to emphasize to the GM that this adventure has to be read thoroughly, prepped for and customized. I know that might seem counter to the value of a pre-written adventure, but multiple people have identified the peculiarities of any particular group of high level PCs as a design challenge. Is tell the GM explicitly to customize the adventure for their characters a good solution? And if so, what does your baseline design look like -- assumes the cleric, wizard, rogue, warrior standard mix?

Customized no, but adapted yes. I think there is a strong difference in the words. You don't need to customize the locations, or the names, or motivations or events. But you do need to adapt the challenges to the party. (Semantics I know, but I think it will be important in marketing and customer adoption.)

By having different sets of NPCs, you can adapt a combat encounter to martials, ranged, casters, etc. All by changing up which set(s) of NPCs you use at a given time.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Yet in the high-level adventure I ran for you (featuring a Sorcerer with a Staff of Power, a Bard and a Cleric/ Paladin), your Fighter was the leading damage dealer by far, and very clearly contributed to the adventure.

From what I recall, we needed the Sorcerer to Plane Shift us there.

Dealing damage is all good, but only if you have people that can actually get you to where you need to be. Making adventures happen in other dimensions, or on the other side of the planet, or inside a giant forcefield'd fortress is cool and makes the party have to figure out how to get there, but some just can't do it by themselves. The party I mentioned above definitely couldn't, only the Monk with Empty Body, but he can't bring others, so they'd have to either grab a magic item that can get them there, or ask an NPC for help, exactly what a low level party would have to do in the situation.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

How would you do that in an adventure? What sorts of design tools would you use to achieve that goal?

You'd do it in the class. At level 15 your martial should basically have the equivalent of a wish each day, and a limited wish on each short rest, that have to be "fluffed" appropriately and are more narrow in scope. The rogue declares units in the dread emperor's armies are his double agents and the DM rolls with it. The barbarian declares that the river he redirected offscreen washes others away or the ranger leads a tarrasque onto the field. Once everyone has major plot coupons, a published adventure can have absurd challenges without worrying how any individual group overcomes them, because any combination can, and no one is left out. D&D only encourages "yes and" with spells, to its detriment.

 

[Reynard]

I stopped worrying about page count long ago. But, I get how depending upon how one were to publish it, it could be a real consideration. Everything I've published (which is only a few) have all been digital only releases. The page count on the PDF doesn't matter. And the amount of text content in an FG module really doesn't matter either

Customized no, but adapted yes. I think there is a strong difference in the words. You don't need to customize the locations, or the names, or motivations or events. But you do need to adapt the challenges to the party. (Semantics I know, but I think it will be important in marketing and customer adoption.)

By having different sets of NPCs, you can adapt a combat encounter to martials, ranged, casters, etc. All by changing up which set(s) of NPCs you use at a given time.

What specific changes would you make? Well, not specific since we don't have an adventure. But would it be like "If the PC party includes a wizard, make sure Counter McSpellian is among the Henchman"?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Perhaps the Vecna drop from last year is a food example of how to approach high Level material: an extremely powerful and highly specific villain with provided fluff to explain what he may be up to, with a general set-up of his lair. Maybe a product full of Big Bads with detailed goals and ambitions, with barely fleshed out encounter areas thst can be dropped in a more DIY setup?

I don't think evil plans need to be too general. Bastion of Broken Souls has a very specific bad thing Ashardalon is up to. I think you can still provide adventures for high level characters, even if the structure is different, without it just being a book of big bads (although the end of 3E books of epic level big bads were apparently very good).

 

[Mort]

Yet in the high-level adventure I ran for you (featuring a Sorcerer with a Staff of Power, a Bard and a Cleric/ Paladin), your Fighter was the leading damage dealer by far, and very clearly contributed to the adventure.

Yeah, I remember thinking the Paladin will outstrip the fighter and the rogue will be close.

But it wasn't remotely close, the fighter FAR out damaged everyone else - even the sorcerer lobbing AoE (even if you added all the damage done to each target together!)

But that's the beauty of high level play, PCs get to contribute in really diverse ways. The bard, for example, was barely in double digits in terms of damage (as a total) while the fighter was doing something like 80+ per round. But the bard was invaluable in other ways during combat and was particularly handy outside of it.

 

[Reynard]

You'd do it in the class. At level 15 your martial should basically have the equivalent of a wish each day, and a limited wish on each short rest, that have to be "fluffed" appropriately and are more narrow in scope. The rogue declares units in the dread emperor's armies are his double agents and the DM rolls with it. The barbarian declares that the river he redirected offscreen washes others away or the ranger leads a tarrasque onto the field. Once everyone has major plot coupons, a published adventure can have absurd challenges without worrying how any individual group overcomes them, because any combination can, and no one is left out.

Again, this discussion is about what design tools you would use in a high level module. "Change the way classes work" isn't a viable option.